8 ms·

Russian trolls are fascinating. The trolls' messages are low class, hateful, incoherent and always grammatically incorrect, yet they seem to be able to infiltr

Russian trolls are fascinating. The trolls' messages are low class, hateful, incoherent and always grammatically incorrect, yet they seem to be able to infiltrate discussions on cnn, bloomberg, reddit, zerohedge (which is an anti-western site anyways), and sometimes hacker news, and seem to have some influences amongst uninformed and angry netizens. Case in point, a random stock broker at my brokerage mentions to me that he read on zerohedge that US is about to collapse, and is no match for Russia's might. Which is hilarious because Russia's economy is tiny compared to US (and Russia's GDP fell 1/3 this year), and US army is at least 2 generations ahead of Russia (and China). The Russian government is fascinating. It's a totalitarian government, and yet, because of it's paid propagandas, it has instilled some ideas amongst the educated that Putin is a great leader. A dictator that hoarded all the oil and gas riches for him and his cronies during Russia's more vibrant economy, invaded crimea and ukraine, and seeks to impose its military on the world, despite a tiny flailing economy and aged military. With only some power because it's backed by another totalitarian government, China, which itself is starting to be more aggressive in south east Asia. In any case, it seems to be that the threat to democracy will come from these paid trolls that seek to influence the minds of the western citizens.

talmand 11y ago
That threat you speak of is not from trolls, but from people who believe them. Our world of instant communications and easy access to it has shown the problems of not educating the masses of how the internet works. This is nothing new. History is rife with examples of propaganda leading to policy. It's just more widespread and happens faster now.
- pm90 11y ago
  We have to remember that there were a lot more controls over propaganda from other nations just earlier this century than what they are now (e.g. banning communist literature). I honestly don't see a solution to this unless we have a general increase in the wisdom of the population. Censorship worked when the flow of information could be regulated, but with the internet, it seems unlikely that this is possible (unless you take pains to implement something like the Great Firewall). Ideas can have a powerful effect on people. The Bolsheviks believed that the world was ripe to adopt communism, forming an international union of communist countries, and this would happen not through war (necessarily) but by people's revolutions in each individual country. When you understand that plan, it makes sense why the US was so paranoid about communism on its own soil. I'm not saying its communism which will take grip of the imagination of people. But it might be some other radical idea. We need to understand that this is a very real possibility.
  - acqq 11y ago
    > I'm not saying its communism which will take grip of the imagination of people. But it might be some other radical idea. There are some very effective specific radical ideas I'm aware of which stood the test of the time. They typically involve otherworldly entities and an immediate but also the eternal punishment for disbelievers.
johnnydoebk 11y ago
Corruption level is high in Russia, you're right here. But totalitarian government? I'm afraid, you drink too much someone else's Kool-aid. And as for the GDP fall. Could you please provide some references? Because mine show that it's not even close to what you've written [1] [2]. I'd like to read more about generations in the army and the aged military, too. Lack of any references but very big conclusions. That's exactly how pro-Russian trolls' messages look like. [1]: http://www.tradingeconomics.com/russia/gdp-growth http://www.tradingeconomics.com/russia/gdp-growth [2]: http://www.tradingeconomics.com/russia/gdp http://www.tradingeconomics.com/russia/gdp
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- jonatanheyman 11y ago
  Limiting free speech, banning political opposition, arresting dissidents, persecuting people for their sexuality, invading neighbour sovereign states etc, etc. I don't know about you, but I think "totalitarian" draw a more correct picture, than "corruption level is high".
  - kushti 11y ago
    And again, without a single reference? Is it a joke?
    - jonatanheyman 11y ago
      The amount of information about the mentioned issues, available on the web is enormous. Anyone who want to read up on it can just use a search engine. I believe most users should be able to evaluate the credibility of the sources found themselves and I don't think me cherry-picking a few articles would add much credibility to the comment.
    - ptaipale 11y ago
      General discussion typically does not try to list references for things that are obvious. But of course it can be done. Limiting free speech: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_the_press_in_Russia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_the_press_in_Russia "the Russian government exerts control over civil society through selective implementation of the law, restriction and censure." "In 2013 Russia ranked 148th out of 179 countries in the Press Freedom Index from Reporters Without Borders." Banning political opposition: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progress_Party_(Russia) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progress_Party_(Russia) "On 28 April 2015 the party was deprived of registration." Arresting dissidents: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexei_Navalny https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexei_Navalny Persecuting people for their sexuality: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_LGBT_propaganda_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_LGBT_propaganda_law Invading neighbour sovereign states: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_Crimea_by_the_Russian_Federation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_Crimea_by_the_Ru... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014%E2%80%9315_Russian_military_intervention_in_Ukraine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014%E2%80%9315_Russian_milita... An we could add to the list. But it would be pointless, wouldn't it? Since we know that the first step is "you don't have any references", and the next step is "here's some mud flying at you and your references".
acqq 11y ago
> it seems to be that the threat to democracy will come from these paid trolls that seek to influence the minds of the western citizens If the trolls are the "threat to democracy" even worth mentioning, compared to the rest of what's going on in the world, then we're really, really lucky.
MisterWebz 11y ago
Literally all your comments are about how China's bad and how it's in deep trouble. These comments span back more than 100 days. I'm not sure you should be the one calling other people trolls.
- ohitsdom 11y ago
  But they are grammatically correct. Chinese trolls > Russian trolls
  - acqq 11y ago
    Specifically, and unsurprisingly, grammar(Anti-China trolls) > grammar(Russian trolls)
    - iamcurious 11y ago
      Why is it unsurprising? Also, your notation pleases my eyes.
      - acqq 11y ago
        > Why is it unsurprising? We'd have to imagine what is being counted behind the former and the later. Behind the former ("Anti-China trolls", that is) at the moment we have just one specific example brought to our attention. Behind the later ("Russian trolls") is anything anybody understands as such. It appears that the journalist who wrote the article we discuss here considers every author of some pro-Russian opinion as a troll (according to the article kaitai linked to http://kioski.yle.fi/omat/this-is-what-pro-russia-internet-propaganda-feels-like http://kioski.yle.fi/omat/this-is-what-pro-russia-internet-p... ). So there you have a lot of ordinary people who could actually be Russians living in Finland. Or if we extend that to other languages, we also get the people who aren't necessary native speakers. Then we have the people supposedly working at some "government site which pays people to write comments" (as linked by zorf, http://kioski.yle.fi/omat/at-the-origins-of-russian-propaganda http://kioski.yle.fi/omat/at-the-origins-of-russian-propagan... ) being paid some 600 EUR a month, who again are almost certainly not the native speakers and probably aren't motivated too much to care ("we'll lower your salary because you screwed up the grammar on some of your posts"). So we can't expect grammar(Russian trolls) to have a high value, and the grammar(Anti-China trolls) is based on a very small sample. That "proves" the current state of the given inequality. I also hope that this "derivation" also illustrates that naming names ("Anti-China trolls" "Russian trolls") is actually a wrong approach to learn anything about anything. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_calling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_calling
alendit 11y ago
> In any case, it seems to be that the threat to democracy will come from these paid trolls that seek to influence the minds of the western citizens. We need some kind of Ministry which would spread the Truth to the masses to counteract this threat.
theworstshill 11y ago
Well you sure showed them. I wouldn't call anything related to Crimea an invasion either - were the forces stationed there resisting? They switched sides instantly. What about the population, did any insurgents materialize? Seems like what happened really WAS democracy - citizens of one country decided to join another one. Didn't seem to be a problem in Kosovo, but becomes a big problem when Putin is involved. Speaking of democracy - the biggest thread to democracy in the world occured in 2003, when Iraq was invaded. Now instead of one big asshole in control of his own turf, you have hundreds of tiny assholes that are just as bad, all doing terrible things to become the biggest one. And their ambitions are not limited to Iraq anylonger.
- kushti 11y ago
  Even more, my friend lived before(and living now) in Crimea are happy with "invasion" (???). But western people dont' interested in what people of Crimea think, the more important is what CNN says, what a shame.
dang 11y ago
Users have complained to us about your account. After looking at the history, I think they're right. Single-purpose accounts aren't good on HN, single-purpose political accounts are worse, and what you're doing is an abuse of the site. Threads here are supposed to be good-faith conversations, not ideological channels. HN is fine with anonymity, but that doesn't mean people get to twist it to push agendas—we're a community, there's an implicit social contract, and doing that undermines it. Please stop.
JupiterMoon 11y ago
Interestingly the Russian paid trolls apparently come in two forms. (1) the obvious pro-Russia loudmouths and (2) apparently anti-Russia posters. The second category are paid to post because Putin's Russia needs controversy and a sense of confrontation. Essentially they are paid to feed to Trolls..

talmand 11y ago

That threat you speak of is not from trolls, but from people who believe them. Our world of instant communications and easy access to it has shown the problems of not educating the masses of how the internet works. This is nothing new. History is rife with examples of propaganda leading to policy. It's just more widespread and happens faster now.

pm90 11y ago
We have to remember that there were a lot more controls over propaganda from other nations just earlier this century than what they are now (e.g. banning communist literature). I honestly don't see a solution to this unless we have a general increase in the wisdom of the population. Censorship worked when the flow of information could be regulated, but with the internet, it seems unlikely that this is possible (unless you take pains to implement something like the Great Firewall). Ideas can have a powerful effect on people. The Bolsheviks believed that the world was ripe to adopt communism, forming an international union of communist countries, and this would happen not through war (necessarily) but by people's revolutions in each individual country. When you understand that plan, it makes sense why the US was so paranoid about communism on its own soil. I'm not saying its communism which will take grip of the imagination of people. But it might be some other radical idea. We need to understand that this is a very real possibility.
- acqq 11y ago
  > I'm not saying its communism which will take grip of the imagination of people. But it might be some other radical idea. There are some very effective specific radical ideas I'm aware of which stood the test of the time. They typically involve otherworldly entities and an immediate but also the eternal punishment for disbelievers.

johnnydoebk 11y ago

Corruption level is high in Russia, you're right here. But totalitarian government? I'm afraid, you drink too much someone else's Kool-aid. And as for the GDP fall. Could you please provide some references? Because mine show that it's not even close to what you've written [1] [2]. I'd like to read more about generations in the army and the aged military, too. Lack of any references but very big conclusions. That's exactly how pro-Russian trolls' messages look like. [1]: http://www.tradingeconomics.com/russia/gdp-growth http://www.tradingeconomics.com/russia/gdp-growth [2]: http://www.tradingeconomics.com/russia/gdp http://www.tradingeconomics.com/russia/gdp

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
jonatanheyman 11y ago
Limiting free speech, banning political opposition, arresting dissidents, persecuting people for their sexuality, invading neighbour sovereign states etc, etc. I don't know about you, but I think "totalitarian" draw a more correct picture, than "corruption level is high".
- kushti 11y ago
  And again, without a single reference? Is it a joke?
  - jonatanheyman 11y ago
    The amount of information about the mentioned issues, available on the web is enormous. Anyone who want to read up on it can just use a search engine. I believe most users should be able to evaluate the credibility of the sources found themselves and I don't think me cherry-picking a few articles would add much credibility to the comment.
  - ptaipale 11y ago
    General discussion typically does not try to list references for things that are obvious. But of course it can be done. Limiting free speech: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_the_press_in_Russia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_the_press_in_Russia "the Russian government exerts control over civil society through selective implementation of the law, restriction and censure." "In 2013 Russia ranked 148th out of 179 countries in the Press Freedom Index from Reporters Without Borders." Banning political opposition: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progress_Party_(Russia) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progress_Party_(Russia) "On 28 April 2015 the party was deprived of registration." Arresting dissidents: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexei_Navalny https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexei_Navalny Persecuting people for their sexuality: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_LGBT_propaganda_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_LGBT_propaganda_law Invading neighbour sovereign states: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_Crimea_by_the_Russian_Federation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_Crimea_by_the_Ru... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014%E2%80%9315_Russian_military_intervention_in_Ukraine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014%E2%80%9315_Russian_milita... An we could add to the list. But it would be pointless, wouldn't it? Since we know that the first step is "you don't have any references", and the next step is "here's some mud flying at you and your references".

acqq 11y ago

> it seems to be that the threat to democracy will come from these paid trolls that seek to influence the minds of the western citizens If the trolls are the "threat to democracy" even worth mentioning, compared to the rest of what's going on in the world, then we're really, really lucky.

MisterWebz 11y ago

Literally all your comments are about how China's bad and how it's in deep trouble. These comments span back more than 100 days. I'm not sure you should be the one calling other people trolls.

ohitsdom 11y ago
But they are grammatically correct. Chinese trolls > Russian trolls
- acqq 11y ago
  Specifically, and unsurprisingly, grammar(Anti-China trolls) > grammar(Russian trolls)
  - iamcurious 11y ago
    Why is it unsurprising? Also, your notation pleases my eyes.
    - acqq 11y ago
      > Why is it unsurprising? We'd have to imagine what is being counted behind the former and the later. Behind the former ("Anti-China trolls", that is) at the moment we have just one specific example brought to our attention. Behind the later ("Russian trolls") is anything anybody understands as such. It appears that the journalist who wrote the article we discuss here considers every author of some pro-Russian opinion as a troll (according to the article kaitai linked to http://kioski.yle.fi/omat/this-is-what-pro-russia-internet-propaganda-feels-like http://kioski.yle.fi/omat/this-is-what-pro-russia-internet-p... ). So there you have a lot of ordinary people who could actually be Russians living in Finland. Or if we extend that to other languages, we also get the people who aren't necessary native speakers. Then we have the people supposedly working at some "government site which pays people to write comments" (as linked by zorf, http://kioski.yle.fi/omat/at-the-origins-of-russian-propaganda http://kioski.yle.fi/omat/at-the-origins-of-russian-propagan... ) being paid some 600 EUR a month, who again are almost certainly not the native speakers and probably aren't motivated too much to care ("we'll lower your salary because you screwed up the grammar on some of your posts"). So we can't expect grammar(Russian trolls) to have a high value, and the grammar(Anti-China trolls) is based on a very small sample. That "proves" the current state of the given inequality. I also hope that this "derivation" also illustrates that naming names ("Anti-China trolls" "Russian trolls") is actually a wrong approach to learn anything about anything. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_calling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_calling

alendit 11y ago

> In any case, it seems to be that the threat to democracy will come from these paid trolls that seek to influence the minds of the western citizens. We need some kind of Ministry which would spread the Truth to the masses to counteract this threat.

theworstshill 11y ago

Well you sure showed them. I wouldn't call anything related to Crimea an invasion either - were the forces stationed there resisting? They switched sides instantly. What about the population, did any insurgents materialize? Seems like what happened really WAS democracy - citizens of one country decided to join another one. Didn't seem to be a problem in Kosovo, but becomes a big problem when Putin is involved. Speaking of democracy - the biggest thread to democracy in the world occured in 2003, when Iraq was invaded. Now instead of one big asshole in control of his own turf, you have hundreds of tiny assholes that are just as bad, all doing terrible things to become the biggest one. And their ambitions are not limited to Iraq anylonger.

kushti 11y ago
Even more, my friend lived before(and living now) in Crimea are happy with "invasion" (???). But western people dont' interested in what people of Crimea think, the more important is what CNN says, what a shame.

dang 11y ago

Users have complained to us about your account. After looking at the history, I think they're right. Single-purpose accounts aren't good on HN, single-purpose political accounts are worse, and what you're doing is an abuse of the site. Threads here are supposed to be good-faith conversations, not ideological channels. HN is fine with anonymity, but that doesn't mean people get to twist it to push agendas—we're a community, there's an implicit social contract, and doing that undermines it. Please stop.

JupiterMoon 11y ago

Interestingly the Russian paid trolls apparently come in two forms. (1) the obvious pro-Russia loudmouths and (2) apparently anti-Russia posters. The second category are paid to post because Putin's Russia needs controversy and a sense of confrontation. Essentially they are paid to feed to Trolls..