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She states: the "high level Finnish Parliament official Peter Saramo has been spreading lies about me – Saramo said I put all Finnish journalists to shame and l

by acqq 11y ago

She states: the "high level Finnish Parliament official Peter Saramo has been spreading lies about me – Saramo said I put all Finnish journalists to shame and later spread false information about me." Does she claim that the member of the Parliament is a paid Russian troll? Or that he believed some false information to be true? What was it? What are the "lies" he have "spread"? I only see something he wrote using his own name on the Facebook. And we actually don't know what's behind the claim that she "puts all Finnish journalists to shame."

nabla9 11y ago
Saramo is not a paid troll (at least not directly). You could call him captured pawn for troll army. Saramo is member of Finnish-Russian (Friendship) Society and very sympathetic to Russian point of view.
- acqq 11y ago
  > a captured pawn (...) a member of Finnish-Russian (Friendship) Society and very sympathetic to Russian point of view And as a member of that Society elected to the Parliament? What's wrong with that? Democracy working, he being a representative of his voters and all that. I'm still asking what the "lies" she claims that he "spreads" about her are. After that question, calling him a "captured pawn" is a distraction, not a contribution to the discussion.
  - ptaipale 11y ago
    > And as a member of that Society elected to the Parliament? No, not elected. A civil servant working at the Parliament.
    - acqq 11y ago
      Then the place where he works isn't even worth discussing. Even the gatekeeper there works "at the Parliament" but it's not relevant to the opinions he posts on the Facebook.
      - ptaipale 11y ago
        He's a senior official who handles e.g. all matters regarding Finnish relations to EU when they go to the parliamentary committee. This is about as senior as it gets in our modest House of Parliament. So this is a bit like a Brit saying "it's not worth discussing where Kim Philby is working" because even the SIS has janitors. I'm not saying he's Kim Philby, I'm just saying his position is not irrelevant.
metafunctor 11y ago
She says that Peter Saramo has been affected by pro-russian propaganda, not that he would be directly involved in producing it. Saramo is of the opinion that Russian trolling does not exist, and that Aro is spreading unsubstantiated lies. I can't easily find what the false information is that Aro claims Saramo has been spreading about her.
- acqq 11y ago
  > She says that Peter Saramo has been affected by pro-russian propaganda, not that he would be directly involved in producing it. She explicitly claims that he "spreads lies" about her. If the Facebook comment pictured is the statement that "she is a shame" then I don't understand that as "spreading" (when it's a Facebook comment) and "lies" (when it's an unfavorable opinion).
  - comrh 11y ago
    It's in the article, he posted: "media prostitutes, who have sold our independence for money and put out anti-Russian scum on a daily basis aiming at increase NATO war mongering". So he's alleging she's a paid NATO propagandist.
    - acqq 11y ago
      No, it's a posting by some other Peter, not Peter Saramo, on the picture is a posting by some "Peter Ilskola" (in Egypt! Al-Whateverghrhqh! Speaking Finnish, about the Finnish journalists!? Appears legit, right?) if I read it correctly.
      - comrh 11y ago
        Ah good looking out.
kaitai 11y ago
You can look at Saramo's Twitter mentions of Aro: they're pretty negative, mostly implications that she didn't do any research/is biased/is herself a liar and that her work is a threat to Finland. The specific quote ("Jessi[kk]a Aro is a shame to YLE and her profession. If the state's broadcaster is spreading things like this, Finland is not a Nordic country" -- my translation) is in response to this article: http://kioski.yle.fi/omat/this-is-what-pro-russia-internet-propaganda-feels-like http://kioski.yle.fi/omat/this-is-what-pro-russia-internet-p... Since it's in English you can read it and judge yourself if you think the article means she's a shame to journalists and the state broadcaster YLE. Saramo is in general smart enough not to say things that are quickly disproved when attached to a specific name. He's written some long pieces on rather partisan sites [1] attacking the "Infowar" book (Infosota) and essentially saying that these folks (Aro, Saara Jantunen) are themselves manipulators of opinion and that their work on trolls is a threat to freedom of expression and set on suppressing dissent in Finland. [1] http://vastavalkea.fi/2015/10/21/infosotarintamalta-ei-mitaan-uutta/ http://vastavalkea.fi/2015/10/21/infosotarintamalta-ei-mitaa...
- acqq 11y ago
  "You can look at Saramo's Twitter mentions of Aro" As I said, I don't know Finnish. Still, thanks for the link to her article. The quote I like from that article is "Torsti Sirén, an Adjunct Professor in the National Defence University of Finland:" says "it seems name-calling and slandering usually backfires on the name callers themselves. Finns are conscious and educated people and understand what is propaganda and what isn’t. So let them just go ahead and call other people names, says Sirén." But that article itself really doesn't contain much real information, compared to the one zorf linked here, which is really interesting. So you also can't specify any actual "lies" he "spread." I don't think it's wrong to consider that she in fact influences the public opinion, being a journalist. And that the article you link to doesn't give any fact apart of "setting the tone" against "those who don't think like we." It seems that the big part of her "worry" is that not all people on the Russian-speaking forum (!) think the way she would like to. Looks a lot like a longer variant of the post made by sharetea here.
  - kaitai 11y ago
ptaipale 11y ago
> Does she claim that the member of the Parliament is a paid Russian troll? No, she doesn't - first of all, Peter Saramo is not a member of the Parliament, he is a civil servant who is working at the Parliament (as the head of secretaries for Grand Committee, whose task is e.g. to prepare legislation for EU matters.) Second, she doesn't claim that Saramo is a paid troll. He is clearly paid well enough by the taxpayer (that's me); his hobby is to be a fellow traveler of trolls. As to the rest of what you ask, this is yet another typical example of methods in trolling - throwing about many unclear and therefore unrefutable implications. As a Finnish proverb says, "one fool can ask more questions than ten wise men can answer".
- acqq 11y ago
  She actually claimed Saramo "spreads lies" about her and I'm yet to see any confirmation to that. I understand you don't like Saramo, maybe I wouldn't too if I knew more, but at the moment I don't like her too. I see she writes a lot, claims a lot but seems that she really claims more than she should be believed (like that specific "lies" thing). And I also have some proverbs for you but I'll refrain from writing them here (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_calling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_calling )

by acqq 11y ago

nabla9 11y ago

Saramo is not a paid troll (at least not directly). You could call him captured pawn for troll army. Saramo is member of Finnish-Russian (Friendship) Society and very sympathetic to Russian point of view.

acqq 11y ago
> a captured pawn (...) a member of Finnish-Russian (Friendship) Society and very sympathetic to Russian point of view And as a member of that Society elected to the Parliament? What's wrong with that? Democracy working, he being a representative of his voters and all that. I'm still asking what the "lies" she claims that he "spreads" about her are. After that question, calling him a "captured pawn" is a distraction, not a contribution to the discussion.
- ptaipale 11y ago
  > And as a member of that Society elected to the Parliament? No, not elected. A civil servant working at the Parliament.
  - acqq 11y ago
    Then the place where he works isn't even worth discussing. Even the gatekeeper there works "at the Parliament" but it's not relevant to the opinions he posts on the Facebook.
    - ptaipale 11y ago
      He's a senior official who handles e.g. all matters regarding Finnish relations to EU when they go to the parliamentary committee. This is about as senior as it gets in our modest House of Parliament. So this is a bit like a Brit saying "it's not worth discussing where Kim Philby is working" because even the SIS has janitors. I'm not saying he's Kim Philby, I'm just saying his position is not irrelevant.

metafunctor 11y ago

She says that Peter Saramo has been affected by pro-russian propaganda, not that he would be directly involved in producing it. Saramo is of the opinion that Russian trolling does not exist, and that Aro is spreading unsubstantiated lies. I can't easily find what the false information is that Aro claims Saramo has been spreading about her.

acqq 11y ago
> She says that Peter Saramo has been affected by pro-russian propaganda, not that he would be directly involved in producing it. She explicitly claims that he "spreads lies" about her. If the Facebook comment pictured is the statement that "she is a shame" then I don't understand that as "spreading" (when it's a Facebook comment) and "lies" (when it's an unfavorable opinion).
- comrh 11y ago
  It's in the article, he posted: "media prostitutes, who have sold our independence for money and put out anti-Russian scum on a daily basis aiming at increase NATO war mongering". So he's alleging she's a paid NATO propagandist.
  - acqq 11y ago
    No, it's a posting by some other Peter, not Peter Saramo, on the picture is a posting by some "Peter Ilskola" (in Egypt! Al-Whateverghrhqh! Speaking Finnish, about the Finnish journalists!? Appears legit, right?) if I read it correctly.
    - comrh 11y ago
      Ah good looking out.

kaitai 11y ago

You can look at Saramo's Twitter mentions of Aro: they're pretty negative, mostly implications that she didn't do any research/is biased/is herself a liar and that her work is a threat to Finland. The specific quote ("Jessi[kk]a Aro is a shame to YLE and her profession. If the state's broadcaster is spreading things like this, Finland is not a Nordic country" -- my translation) is in response to this article: http://kioski.yle.fi/omat/this-is-what-pro-russia-internet-propaganda-feels-like http://kioski.yle.fi/omat/this-is-what-pro-russia-internet-p... Since it's in English you can read it and judge yourself if you think the article means she's a shame to journalists and the state broadcaster YLE. Saramo is in general smart enough not to say things that are quickly disproved when attached to a specific name. He's written some long pieces on rather partisan sites [1] attacking the "Infowar" book (Infosota) and essentially saying that these folks (Aro, Saara Jantunen) are themselves manipulators of opinion and that their work on trolls is a threat to freedom of expression and set on suppressing dissent in Finland. [1] http://vastavalkea.fi/2015/10/21/infosotarintamalta-ei-mitaan-uutta/ http://vastavalkea.fi/2015/10/21/infosotarintamalta-ei-mitaa...

acqq 11y ago
"You can look at Saramo's Twitter mentions of Aro" As I said, I don't know Finnish. Still, thanks for the link to her article. The quote I like from that article is "Torsti Sirén, an Adjunct Professor in the National Defence University of Finland:" says "it seems name-calling and slandering usually backfires on the name callers themselves. Finns are conscious and educated people and understand what is propaganda and what isn’t. So let them just go ahead and call other people names, says Sirén." But that article itself really doesn't contain much real information, compared to the one zorf linked here, which is really interesting. So you also can't specify any actual "lies" he "spread." I don't think it's wrong to consider that she in fact influences the public opinion, being a journalist. And that the article you link to doesn't give any fact apart of "setting the tone" against "those who don't think like we." It seems that the big part of her "worry" is that not all people on the Russian-speaking forum (!) think the way she would like to. Looks a lot like a longer variant of the post made by sharetea here.
- kaitai 11y ago

ptaipale 11y ago

> Does she claim that the member of the Parliament is a paid Russian troll? No, she doesn't - first of all, Peter Saramo is not a member of the Parliament, he is a civil servant who is working at the Parliament (as the head of secretaries for Grand Committee, whose task is e.g. to prepare legislation for EU matters.) Second, she doesn't claim that Saramo is a paid troll. He is clearly paid well enough by the taxpayer (that's me); his hobby is to be a fellow traveler of trolls. As to the rest of what you ask, this is yet another typical example of methods in trolling - throwing about many unclear and therefore unrefutable implications. As a Finnish proverb says, "one fool can ask more questions than ten wise men can answer".

acqq 11y ago
She actually claimed Saramo "spreads lies" about her and I'm yet to see any confirmation to that. I understand you don't like Saramo, maybe I wouldn't too if I knew more, but at the moment I don't like her too. I see she writes a lot, claims a lot but seems that she really claims more than she should be believed (like that specific "lies" thing). And I also have some proverbs for you but I'll refrain from writing them here (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_calling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_calling )