4 ms·

The scary thing, if you permit me to be frank, is that (1) you count the time it takes to find a job starting from the graduation, as if the years spent at coll

by rdancer 11y ago

The scary thing, if you permit me to be frank, is that (1) you count the time it takes to find a job starting from the graduation, as if the years spent at college were not the ideal time to get a job lined up, and (2) that the job is something external that you couldn't possibly create yourself.

eli_gottlieb 11y ago
>(2) that the job is something external that you couldn't possibly create yourself. Where I come from, we don't expect noob engineers to invent game-changing new products in their first few months out of school. Why? Because unless you've spent a little while in business, at least working for someone else, you're simply not going to know which market niches are starving for a better mousetrap. So, sure, I'm only six months into working in industry but I can already name a fair handful of things that could use improvement through healthy market competition or improved engineering techniques. But I've been working for an R&D company for six months! Ex nihilo creativity doesn't work and isn't a valid thing to demand from people.
- rdancer 11y ago
  I'm talking about creating a job for yourself, i.e. becoming self-employed/starting a business with a friend, not competing with Tesla. You're a noob in your freshman year at the latest. Not after three or four years of class projects, study, summer internships! And albeit your value added isn't going to be as high as seasoned practitioners', are your prospects as dismal that you couldn't create a job for yourself that would pay your living expenses + some pocket money, and have a prospect of getting you on a good career path?
  - MIKarlsen 11y ago
    My field of study doesn't include anything but analytical skills. Which means I would have to become a consultant. I'm the first in my family to go to university, and frankly, I thought that it would prepare me for a job. The last two years however, I've found out that that's not the case. I've since then done a lot to try to make up for this "naivity", but so far I haven't been able to position myself any better. Also, I'm all alone in figuring these things out as university doesn't provide any feedback during the first many years because of cutbacks. I'm optimistic that I'll find a job, but I'm also painfully aware of the fact that other educations hold much greater value for society than mine.
    - tutaroo 11y ago
      "My field of study doesn't include anything but analytical skills. Which means I would have to become a consultant." That is a silly way to think about entrepreneurship... that is like saying "I'm CPA certified so the only business I can start is my own accounting firm."
    - MIKarlsen 11y ago
      @Tutaroo But that is my point. Even with all my education, I'm still expected to educate myself even further. I'm not against this at all, but I wonder when the circle stops. Also, should I venture into a new field in order to supplement my existing knowledge, I will be a novice, which again brings me at the bottom of the foodchain. I know for a fact that had I chosen an engineering or CS degree, this would not be the case, and I could've been employed during my bachelor degree did I want to.
MIKarlsen 11y ago
Thank you for the answer. It is not as if people in this situation have not tried. It's perfectly normal for people in my country to have at least one, and often two internships during their studies. It is also the norm that most people do have part-time jobs in addition to their studies. But as the point here is, fewer of us are needed. Another "problem" is that if I want to get my education, I'm also bound to complete the tasks and courses the university tells me to. I can of course chose my own path, but if you're in my position, and the greater purpose of what you've been studied does not seem to be a commodity that the job-market wants, you're forced to develop yourself even further. This is not a rant or critique, but logically, this is what has to happen, which is why I also can feel frustrated that I feel like I've done everything that the society I'm eager to contribute to have asked of me, and still, I'm told "it's your fault", "you could've started earlier" etc. I have not created the system I'm about to inherit, and the shameless individualization we're many times witnessing is frustrating. So much that I've personally had to seek professional help/counseling in order to be able to complete my studies, which I know is an increasing problem between me and my peers. It is also perfectly possible that I've simply chosen to dive into a field that this "new world order" does not need. So how do we react to that? Should an economic rationalisation be in control of what education you get? Or is this simply just a product of the current model that a more limited set of skills will be driving a much larger part of society in the future?
- rdancer 11y ago
  There's the personal aspect of education, which hopefully makes you a better person, and there's the professional aspect of education, which makes you more employable. The problem is that the two get conflated. The right to tertiary-level education in the EU (do you live in the EU?) should be for the former. I'm skeptical, though, that many people are willing to pursue personal development at the university level. But they want the prestige of being "educated". So we end up with technical colleges playing at being universities, badly, and churning out graduates who are unemployable: You get neither personal, nor professional education. It's of no benefit to you or the society. I wish I had a good suggestion for a cure to this malaise. Myself, I said: "fuck it", left my country, went to a top UK uni, dropped out, and started a business.

by rdancer 11y ago

eli_gottlieb 11y ago

>(2) that the job is something external that you couldn't possibly create yourself. Where I come from, we don't expect noob engineers to invent game-changing new products in their first few months out of school. Why? Because unless you've spent a little while in business, at least working for someone else, you're simply not going to know which market niches are starving for a better mousetrap. So, sure, I'm only six months into working in industry but I can already name a fair handful of things that could use improvement through healthy market competition or improved engineering techniques. But I've been working for an R&D company for six months! Ex nihilo creativity doesn't work and isn't a valid thing to demand from people.

rdancer 11y ago
I'm talking about creating a job for yourself, i.e. becoming self-employed/starting a business with a friend, not competing with Tesla. You're a noob in your freshman year at the latest. Not after three or four years of class projects, study, summer internships! And albeit your value added isn't going to be as high as seasoned practitioners', are your prospects as dismal that you couldn't create a job for yourself that would pay your living expenses + some pocket money, and have a prospect of getting you on a good career path?
- MIKarlsen 11y ago
  My field of study doesn't include anything but analytical skills. Which means I would have to become a consultant. I'm the first in my family to go to university, and frankly, I thought that it would prepare me for a job. The last two years however, I've found out that that's not the case. I've since then done a lot to try to make up for this "naivity", but so far I haven't been able to position myself any better. Also, I'm all alone in figuring these things out as university doesn't provide any feedback during the first many years because of cutbacks. I'm optimistic that I'll find a job, but I'm also painfully aware of the fact that other educations hold much greater value for society than mine.
  - tutaroo 11y ago
    "My field of study doesn't include anything but analytical skills. Which means I would have to become a consultant." That is a silly way to think about entrepreneurship... that is like saying "I'm CPA certified so the only business I can start is my own accounting firm."
  - MIKarlsen 11y ago
    @Tutaroo But that is my point. Even with all my education, I'm still expected to educate myself even further. I'm not against this at all, but I wonder when the circle stops. Also, should I venture into a new field in order to supplement my existing knowledge, I will be a novice, which again brings me at the bottom of the foodchain. I know for a fact that had I chosen an engineering or CS degree, this would not be the case, and I could've been employed during my bachelor degree did I want to.

MIKarlsen 11y ago

Thank you for the answer. It is not as if people in this situation have not tried. It's perfectly normal for people in my country to have at least one, and often two internships during their studies. It is also the norm that most people do have part-time jobs in addition to their studies. But as the point here is, fewer of us are needed. Another "problem" is that if I want to get my education, I'm also bound to complete the tasks and courses the university tells me to. I can of course chose my own path, but if you're in my position, and the greater purpose of what you've been studied does not seem to be a commodity that the job-market wants, you're forced to develop yourself even further. This is not a rant or critique, but logically, this is what has to happen, which is why I also can feel frustrated that I feel like I've done everything that the society I'm eager to contribute to have asked of me, and still, I'm told "it's your fault", "you could've started earlier" etc. I have not created the system I'm about to inherit, and the shameless individualization we're many times witnessing is frustrating. So much that I've personally had to seek professional help/counseling in order to be able to complete my studies, which I know is an increasing problem between me and my peers. It is also perfectly possible that I've simply chosen to dive into a field that this "new world order" does not need. So how do we react to that? Should an economic rationalisation be in control of what education you get? Or is this simply just a product of the current model that a more limited set of skills will be driving a much larger part of society in the future?

rdancer 11y ago
There's the personal aspect of education, which hopefully makes you a better person, and there's the professional aspect of education, which makes you more employable. The problem is that the two get conflated. The right to tertiary-level education in the EU (do you live in the EU?) should be for the former. I'm skeptical, though, that many people are willing to pursue personal development at the university level. But they want the prestige of being "educated". So we end up with technical colleges playing at being universities, badly, and churning out graduates who are unemployable: You get neither personal, nor professional education. It's of no benefit to you or the society. I wish I had a good suggestion for a cure to this malaise. Myself, I said: "fuck it", left my country, went to a top UK uni, dropped out, and started a business.