4 ms·

In December 2014, a committee convened by the US National Academies released a report aimed at highlighting and improving the postdoc’s plight. The committee ca

In December 2014, a committee convened by the US National Academies released a report aimed at highlighting and improving the postdoc’s plight. The committee called for a hike in salaries, from the current recommended starting salary of US$42,840 to $50,000... Hands up, everybody who would love to hire a scientist with a PhD for less than $50k/year.

danieltillett 11y ago
Depends on the scientist. My personal experience is the best postdocs are more than 10x more productive than the average. Some post docs are worth $300,000 per year, while the bottom 20% are worth -$100,000 per year. The real problem is that everyone gets basically the same salary and as an employer you have no ability to pay more to the great postdocs.
- cperciva 11y ago
  My point was that outside of academia we would laugh at any company which expected to hire a PhD and pay them under $50k/year.
  - danieltillett 11y ago
    Yes I agree, but the PIs don't actually have any control over the pay of their postdocs. When I was a PI I wished I could pay more, but I couldn't.
    - p4bl0 11y ago
      As a post-doc, I'm not sure people willing to stay in academia care that much about salary. I don't want to be paid a lot, if that was my priority, I would get a job in the industry. What I would like is a stable position where I could engage in mid- to long-term research projects, where I have less pressure and can focus on doing great things even if it means working hard without tangible results for a few years, etc. Salary-wise, I only want to have enough money to not have to worry about it and be able to focus on my research and my life. In many places in the world, $50k/year is largely enough for that.
      - danieltillett 11y ago
        I also agree with this, but once you get to a certain age and start having a family (or start thinking about having one) then just saying money doesn't matter does not cut it anymore. In my opinion good postdocs are massively underpaid. This has an big effect as You could live without having a long term project if you had the savings to survive between positions.
        p4bl0 11y ago
        I totally agree with your first point. But I stand by my case. I didn't say "money doesn't matter", I said "I want to have enough, rather than as much as possible". $50k/year means that you get something like 3000€/month. Early career researcher with faculty position are paid less than that in France, and it lasts years and years before you get to this salary level. And is you don't get a full professor or senior researcher position, you won't ever go much higher. A lot of people, if not most people, have children while earning less than 3000€/month and have no money problems. On your second point, the problem is that even if you have enough money to live between temporary positions, not being able to get a position at some point is a huge red flag in your application file, and this kind of gap are often fatals in competitive recruitment process, as the people in charge of the recruitment are looking for ways to discard applicants. I'm really not saying you are wrong as I don't think so, my point is to say that the problem you highlight (salary level) is not the one that needs to be addressed to "repair the system".
      - gaius 11y ago
        I don't want to be paid a lot, if that was my priority, I would get a job in the industry. What I would like is a stable position where I could engage in mid- to long-term research projects, where I have less pressure Sure but there's cash-equivalent value in that too. Ask anyone in any volatile industry in the private sector, the cash premium is there because your company no matter how well established, might not even exist in a year.
        p4bl0 11y ago
        Of course I understand that, that's why I specified I'm talking about "people willing to stay in academia" (which is in my understanding the main focus of the linked story). I'm hoping that universities and government labs are not volatile ;).
parennoob 11y ago
> a scientist with a PhD for less than $50k/year. There are several angles to this. Yes, a scientist with a PhD might be able to make way more than that in industry, and they are welcome to do so. Meanwhile, at public universities in the US anyway, taxes paid by the rest of us help to sustain PhDs through sometimes 7+ years of grad school with things like subsidized housing and free minimal/no copay medical and dental insurance plans. So I'm not particularly worried if they don't immediately start getting paid at industry-par rates by the same universities. A lot of them do go into industry later and make a lot of money.
- nagrom 11y ago
  A reasonable number of my friends did particle physics PhDs in the States. None of them had their housing subsidised and one got very sick and had to sell her car to pay for her medical treatment so I don't think her health plan was great. I'm fairly certain dental wasn't included. And the ones I know worked 10-12 hours per day usually six days per week. Some grad students do have better conditions from endowments that fund scholarships, but not many. And the supplementary work that they do as teaching assistants allow the taxpayer-funded undergrad programmes to run at a much lower cost than if they had to pay people actual wages. There is an argument for saying that there's enough money in the further education sector - but the idea of grad students with cheap housing and great medical plans living off the taxpayers are not supported by any of the observations that I have made.
  - parennoob 11y ago
    > but the idea of grad students with cheap housing and great medical plans living off the taxpayers are not supported by any of the observations that I have made. My observation was based on my own experience as a grad student at a state school. I had free medical/dental insurance and grad-student specific housing incredibly close to my workplace. Possibly this is not wide enough to be true on the general basis; which is why I restricted my comment scope to say "state school". I have heard similar experiences from people at other state schools as well. So I'm not sure why there is such a big disconnect in our experiences. Can other people weigh in?

danieltillett 11y ago

Depends on the scientist. My personal experience is the best postdocs are more than 10x more productive than the average. Some post docs are worth $300,000 per year, while the bottom 20% are worth -$100,000 per year. The real problem is that everyone gets basically the same salary and as an employer you have no ability to pay more to the great postdocs.

cperciva 11y ago
My point was that outside of academia we would laugh at any company which expected to hire a PhD and pay them under $50k/year.
- danieltillett 11y ago
  Yes I agree, but the PIs don't actually have any control over the pay of their postdocs. When I was a PI I wished I could pay more, but I couldn't.
  - p4bl0 11y ago
    As a post-doc, I'm not sure people willing to stay in academia care that much about salary. I don't want to be paid a lot, if that was my priority, I would get a job in the industry. What I would like is a stable position where I could engage in mid- to long-term research projects, where I have less pressure and can focus on doing great things even if it means working hard without tangible results for a few years, etc. Salary-wise, I only want to have enough money to not have to worry about it and be able to focus on my research and my life. In many places in the world, $50k/year is largely enough for that.
    - danieltillett 11y ago
      I also agree with this, but once you get to a certain age and start having a family (or start thinking about having one) then just saying money doesn't matter does not cut it anymore. In my opinion good postdocs are massively underpaid. This has an big effect as You could live without having a long term project if you had the savings to survive between positions.
      - p4bl0 11y ago
        I totally agree with your first point. But I stand by my case. I didn't say "money doesn't matter", I said "I want to have enough, rather than as much as possible". $50k/year means that you get something like 3000€/month. Early career researcher with faculty position are paid less than that in France, and it lasts years and years before you get to this salary level. And is you don't get a full professor or senior researcher position, you won't ever go much higher. A lot of people, if not most people, have children while earning less than 3000€/month and have no money problems. On your second point, the problem is that even if you have enough money to live between temporary positions, not being able to get a position at some point is a huge red flag in your application file, and this kind of gap are often fatals in competitive recruitment process, as the people in charge of the recruitment are looking for ways to discard applicants. I'm really not saying you are wrong as I don't think so, my point is to say that the problem you highlight (salary level) is not the one that needs to be addressed to "repair the system".
    - gaius 11y ago
      I don't want to be paid a lot, if that was my priority, I would get a job in the industry. What I would like is a stable position where I could engage in mid- to long-term research projects, where I have less pressure Sure but there's cash-equivalent value in that too. Ask anyone in any volatile industry in the private sector, the cash premium is there because your company no matter how well established, might not even exist in a year.
      - p4bl0 11y ago
        Of course I understand that, that's why I specified I'm talking about "people willing to stay in academia" (which is in my understanding the main focus of the linked story). I'm hoping that universities and government labs are not volatile ;).

parennoob 11y ago

> a scientist with a PhD for less than $50k/year. There are several angles to this. Yes, a scientist with a PhD might be able to make way more than that in industry, and they are welcome to do so. Meanwhile, at public universities in the US anyway, taxes paid by the rest of us help to sustain PhDs through sometimes 7+ years of grad school with things like subsidized housing and free minimal/no copay medical and dental insurance plans. So I'm not particularly worried if they don't immediately start getting paid at industry-par rates by the same universities. A lot of them do go into industry later and make a lot of money.

nagrom 11y ago
A reasonable number of my friends did particle physics PhDs in the States. None of them had their housing subsidised and one got very sick and had to sell her car to pay for her medical treatment so I don't think her health plan was great. I'm fairly certain dental wasn't included. And the ones I know worked 10-12 hours per day usually six days per week. Some grad students do have better conditions from endowments that fund scholarships, but not many. And the supplementary work that they do as teaching assistants allow the taxpayer-funded undergrad programmes to run at a much lower cost than if they had to pay people actual wages. There is an argument for saying that there's enough money in the further education sector - but the idea of grad students with cheap housing and great medical plans living off the taxpayers are not supported by any of the observations that I have made.
- parennoob 11y ago
  > but the idea of grad students with cheap housing and great medical plans living off the taxpayers are not supported by any of the observations that I have made. My observation was based on my own experience as a grad student at a state school. I had free medical/dental insurance and grad-student specific housing incredibly close to my workplace. Possibly this is not wide enough to be true on the general basis; which is why I restricted my comment scope to say "state school". I have heard similar experiences from people at other state schools as well. So I'm not sure why there is such a big disconnect in our experiences. Can other people weigh in?