4 ms·

"A lot of compartmentalizing into giant subsystems (let's put all the commerce here , all the houses there! In giant buildings!)." I'm not familiar with archit

by draven 11y ago

"A lot of compartmentalizing into giant subsystems (let's put all the commerce here , all the houses there! In giant buildings!)." I'm not familiar with architecture nor city planning, but did these guys ever stop and look at how city centers work (in Europe at least.) Living spaces, parks and commerce places are all mixed, an arrangement that's the result organic growth and restructuration over time, converging towards a (at least local) optimum for people living there.

vidarh 11y ago
Many did, and many clearly thought it was too chaotic for their tastes and/or didn't actually stop to think where all the people were coming from or going to. It also gets easier to understand the temptation when you look at the kind of stamps other planners have been able to put on cities. Central Park? Arch de Triomphe with it's radiating avenues? The successful examples puts you in the history books. And even the not-quite-so-successful examples can look amazing and still be fantastic landmarks (e.g. la Défense, with the position of La Grande Arche as one end of the "historical axis" ending at the Louvre). It's not that surprising that a lot of city planners gets seduced by broad strokes and grand structures when the "prize" is to have your work quite literally stand out even on maps.
dreamfactory2 11y ago
It's very formalized in Barcelona's Eixample - the streets are on a square grid and each block is mix-zoned in order that each is a mini community e.g. you probably have a cafe and restaurant on your block, don't need to go far for a laundry etc
_delirium 11y ago
Part of their motivation was scale: how do you house 10x as many people? Or 50x? As countries were rapidly urbanizing, it looked clear that the traditional European city center design couldn't handle the population influx, leading to a proliferation of ramshackle slums, lengthy commutes from the suburbs, etc. The modernist housing-block was one proposed solution, to provide housing at large scale while still letting light in, having high standards of cleanliness, etc. What actually happened in most places was the long-commute option, though. A European city center like Stockholm looks nice and quaint as a historical piece, but as a livable city it doesn't work very well, because it doesn't have sufficient living space for most of Stockholm's population. Instead, most Stockholmers live in modernist housing blocks out in the suburbs, and commute in. So you still have the modernist housing blocks, they're just placed in a more out of the way location. Is that better or worse? Better for the scenic Stockholm city center, but probably worse for livability.
- gozo 11y ago
  Uhm. I'm not sure that is entirely correct. The city proper of Stockholm is very dense, often comparable to Paris. While not as uniformly dense there is higher building often six to eight floors, compared to the usual five in Paris [0, 1]. The modernist housing blocks in Stockholm were to some degree supposed to be self-supported in what was called an ABC-area. ABC (Arbete, Bostad, Centrum) is an acronym in Swedish for work, housing and service (or center). That's why they are as disconnected from the city as they are. The problem with Stockholm is that the city stops very abruptly once you go outside the main islands. You essentially have suburbs just a couple of kilometers from the city center. While Paris just goes on and on. This becomes quite clear if you look west on a satellite maps of Stockholm [2] or compare panoramas [3, 4]. [0] http://www.arcgis.com/home/webmap/viewer.html?webmap=e53279637d3640c58edd542d50d99e89&extent=17.545,59.1193,18.5592,59.4706 http://www.arcgis.com/home/webmap/viewer.html?webmap=e532796... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrondissements_of_Paris https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrondissements_of_Paris [2] https://www.google.com/maps/place/Bromma,+Stockholm,+Sweden/@59.3275603,17.9835409,9633m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x465f9e1e43cac981:0x79938dc7521d624b!6m1!1e1 https://www.google.com/maps/place/Bromma,+Stockholm,+Sweden/... [3] http://www.tyreso.com/ovrigt/flygfoto/city/DSC01246Large.JPG http://www.tyreso.com/ovrigt/flygfoto/city/DSC01246Large.JPG [4] http://caliban.lbl.gov/panoramas/paris/paris_panorama5.jpg http://caliban.lbl.gov/panoramas/paris/paris_panorama5.jpg

by draven 11y ago

vidarh 11y ago

Many did, and many clearly thought it was too chaotic for their tastes and/or didn't actually stop to think where all the people were coming from or going to. It also gets easier to understand the temptation when you look at the kind of stamps other planners have been able to put on cities. Central Park? Arch de Triomphe with it's radiating avenues? The successful examples puts you in the history books. And even the not-quite-so-successful examples can look amazing and still be fantastic landmarks (e.g. la Défense, with the position of La Grande Arche as one end of the "historical axis" ending at the Louvre). It's not that surprising that a lot of city planners gets seduced by broad strokes and grand structures when the "prize" is to have your work quite literally stand out even on maps.

dreamfactory2 11y ago

It's very formalized in Barcelona's Eixample - the streets are on a square grid and each block is mix-zoned in order that each is a mini community e.g. you probably have a cafe and restaurant on your block, don't need to go far for a laundry etc

_delirium 11y ago

Part of their motivation was scale: how do you house 10x as many people? Or 50x? As countries were rapidly urbanizing, it looked clear that the traditional European city center design couldn't handle the population influx, leading to a proliferation of ramshackle slums, lengthy commutes from the suburbs, etc. The modernist housing-block was one proposed solution, to provide housing at large scale while still letting light in, having high standards of cleanliness, etc. What actually happened in most places was the long-commute option, though. A European city center like Stockholm looks nice and quaint as a historical piece, but as a livable city it doesn't work very well, because it doesn't have sufficient living space for most of Stockholm's population. Instead, most Stockholmers live in modernist housing blocks out in the suburbs, and commute in. So you still have the modernist housing blocks, they're just placed in a more out of the way location. Is that better or worse? Better for the scenic Stockholm city center, but probably worse for livability.

gozo 11y ago
Uhm. I'm not sure that is entirely correct. The city proper of Stockholm is very dense, often comparable to Paris. While not as uniformly dense there is higher building often six to eight floors, compared to the usual five in Paris [0, 1]. The modernist housing blocks in Stockholm were to some degree supposed to be self-supported in what was called an ABC-area. ABC (Arbete, Bostad, Centrum) is an acronym in Swedish for work, housing and service (or center). That's why they are as disconnected from the city as they are. The problem with Stockholm is that the city stops very abruptly once you go outside the main islands. You essentially have suburbs just a couple of kilometers from the city center. While Paris just goes on and on. This becomes quite clear if you look west on a satellite maps of Stockholm [2] or compare panoramas [3, 4]. [0] http://www.arcgis.com/home/webmap/viewer.html?webmap=e53279637d3640c58edd542d50d99e89&extent=17.545,59.1193,18.5592,59.4706 http://www.arcgis.com/home/webmap/viewer.html?webmap=e532796... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrondissements_of_Paris https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrondissements_of_Paris [2] https://www.google.com/maps/place/Bromma,+Stockholm,+Sweden/@59.3275603,17.9835409,9633m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x465f9e1e43cac981:0x79938dc7521d624b!6m1!1e1 https://www.google.com/maps/place/Bromma,+Stockholm,+Sweden/... [3] http://www.tyreso.com/ovrigt/flygfoto/city/DSC01246Large.JPG http://www.tyreso.com/ovrigt/flygfoto/city/DSC01246Large.JPG [4] http://caliban.lbl.gov/panoramas/paris/paris_panorama5.jpg http://caliban.lbl.gov/panoramas/paris/paris_panorama5.jpg