5 ms·

Here is a kind of evidence you might like: the amount of raw data available for genetic differences is on the order of 15 megabytes. A bit small, isn't it? That

by curi 19y ago

Here is a kind of evidence you might like: the amount of raw data available for genetic differences is on the order of 15 megabytes. A bit small, isn't it? That's maybe 25 ASCII novels, or fewer if they are long. And we have to fit all differences between humans and apes into those bits, too. Consider how much more information our culture has in it.

Tichy 19y ago
I am not arguing against culture, but you can't deny that your paltry amount of genetic data actually IS sufficient to make the difference between human and apes. Or are you saying the difference is merely cultural, too? I think you defeated your own argument here...
- curi 19y ago
  You have argued against culture's influence, by saying that, today, there are genetic differences which cause high level personality traits in adults, such as being feminine. I know 15megs is enough to implement intelligence, but how much do you imagine is left over to throw in quirks and differences? Certainly many orders of magnitude less information than our culture has it it. Less than our personality has in it. Also bear in mind that to write intelligence in 15 megs, you need a very good programming language. Concise, powerful, lots of libraries, very good abstraction, high level of generality. And it will be targeted towards writing powerful, general, reliable things. On the other hand, these features will be inconvenient when you want to code weird special cases and hacks, so that kind of code will take more lines to write.
  - Tichy 19y ago
    That's the same kind of argumentation the creationists use "see how complex life is, surely it could not just have developed by chance". Well duh, but it has. What do you know about how many genes are required for a behavioral difference? I am really asking you! Don't just throw around numbers like "surely xyz genes can not be enough to make a difference". I think just one gene can be enough in some cases. Maybe some hormone has a higher concentration in the blood of person A than in person B, and zing, totally different personality. Or whatever - I am not a biologist, but I suspect that neither are you.
    - curi 19y ago
      There exists no explanation, ever invented, by anyone, which details how a gene could code for complex parts of adult personalities, like femininity. You can make things up like how a hormone might umm somehow affect stuff. But that isn't an actual mechanism that goes from start to finish. You don't have to prove that a particular mechanism is in fact the one used by our bodies. You don't need any scientific evidence. Just make one up that actually could work and makes sense. No one has ever done that. End of story. Meanwhile, there do exist possible explanations of how culture could account for the same phenomena (like femininity). They have no rival theories. Thus, all reasonable people should tentatively believe that kind of explanation is correct.
      - Tichy 19y ago
        Sorry, that is complete bullshit. There are tons of papers on why genders exists, in terms of evolution theory. There are tons of studies on the effects of various genes - it is a billion dollar industry! Besides, why should I provide the details, if you started with claims of the sort "the number of genes is too small"? Apparently mechanisms exists, humans are being created from mere genes, with lots and lots of differences. I don't think I need to provide any evidence for that - just go out on the street and look at the people. Nobody looks alike, except for the twins. May I ask you: are you a creationist? I really don't want to waste my time... If the hormone level doesn't convince you, let's take body height: can you imagine that body height could make a difference in temper? Again, I don't know, but if there was a study showing it, I would have no trouble believing it. There are actually studies showing that tall men earn more on average than smaller men. The world is a complicated place...
        curi 19y ago
        I know there are many studies to do with genes, I've read a variety of them. If you believe you know of one which answers my challenge, then feel free to cite it. Am I a creationist? Umm, lol. No. If I was, why would i talk about evolution of both memes and genes? Since you keep bringing up personal issues, maybe we can put them to rest: I am a very (classically) liberal person, a scientifically-oriented atheist, generally a small-l libertarian. Not a science-hating, lunatic, religious conservative. body height might control temper? how? a correlation between height and income doesn't imply height causes income, especially not directly.

by curi 19y ago

Tichy 19y ago

I am not arguing against culture, but you can't deny that your paltry amount of genetic data actually IS sufficient to make the difference between human and apes. Or are you saying the difference is merely cultural, too? I think you defeated your own argument here...

curi 19y ago
You have argued against culture's influence, by saying that, today, there are genetic differences which cause high level personality traits in adults, such as being feminine. I know 15megs is enough to implement intelligence, but how much do you imagine is left over to throw in quirks and differences? Certainly many orders of magnitude less information than our culture has it it. Less than our personality has in it. Also bear in mind that to write intelligence in 15 megs, you need a very good programming language. Concise, powerful, lots of libraries, very good abstraction, high level of generality. And it will be targeted towards writing powerful, general, reliable things. On the other hand, these features will be inconvenient when you want to code weird special cases and hacks, so that kind of code will take more lines to write.
- Tichy 19y ago
  That's the same kind of argumentation the creationists use "see how complex life is, surely it could not just have developed by chance". Well duh, but it has. What do you know about how many genes are required for a behavioral difference? I am really asking you! Don't just throw around numbers like "surely xyz genes can not be enough to make a difference". I think just one gene can be enough in some cases. Maybe some hormone has a higher concentration in the blood of person A than in person B, and zing, totally different personality. Or whatever - I am not a biologist, but I suspect that neither are you.
  - curi 19y ago
    There exists no explanation, ever invented, by anyone, which details how a gene could code for complex parts of adult personalities, like femininity. You can make things up like how a hormone might umm somehow affect stuff. But that isn't an actual mechanism that goes from start to finish. You don't have to prove that a particular mechanism is in fact the one used by our bodies. You don't need any scientific evidence. Just make one up that actually could work and makes sense. No one has ever done that. End of story. Meanwhile, there do exist possible explanations of how culture could account for the same phenomena (like femininity). They have no rival theories. Thus, all reasonable people should tentatively believe that kind of explanation is correct.
    - Tichy 19y ago
      Sorry, that is complete bullshit. There are tons of papers on why genders exists, in terms of evolution theory. There are tons of studies on the effects of various genes - it is a billion dollar industry! Besides, why should I provide the details, if you started with claims of the sort "the number of genes is too small"? Apparently mechanisms exists, humans are being created from mere genes, with lots and lots of differences. I don't think I need to provide any evidence for that - just go out on the street and look at the people. Nobody looks alike, except for the twins. May I ask you: are you a creationist? I really don't want to waste my time... If the hormone level doesn't convince you, let's take body height: can you imagine that body height could make a difference in temper? Again, I don't know, but if there was a study showing it, I would have no trouble believing it. There are actually studies showing that tall men earn more on average than smaller men. The world is a complicated place...
      - curi 19y ago
        I know there are many studies to do with genes, I've read a variety of them. If you believe you know of one which answers my challenge, then feel free to cite it. Am I a creationist? Umm, lol. No. If I was, why would i talk about evolution of both memes and genes? Since you keep bringing up personal issues, maybe we can put them to rest: I am a very (classically) liberal person, a scientifically-oriented atheist, generally a small-l libertarian. Not a science-hating, lunatic, religious conservative. body height might control temper? how? a correlation between height and income doesn't imply height causes income, especially not directly.