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Anything can be psychologically addictive with habitual use and what one might call an "addictive personality". Video games, work, porn, caffeine, bacon & eggs,

by Zikes 11y ago

Anything can be psychologically addictive with habitual use and what one might call an "addictive personality". Video games, work, porn, caffeine, bacon & eggs, all the same. Some of those things even have support groups, pills, patches, etc. Nicotine is addictive on a scale far beyond that. Comparing caffeine and nicotine is like comparing nerf and 9mm. That's my argument, and even though every single comment I've made on this thread to that effect has been downvoted into the negatives, I don't care. Apparently that's the hill I'm dying on today, and I'm just fine with that.

sophacles 11y ago
This "nicotine is more addictive" concept is hard to understand for me. For the reasons I outline above. The timeline and severity of withdrawal symptoms aren't that different. The relapse to previous use levels isn't that different. A huge factor in how "bad" each is however seems to be in the responses to relapse. There's disapproval in people's responses to someone taking up nicotine again, but if someone is back to drinking coffee, there's at most a "oh drinking coffee again bob?". These factors in the consequences regarding a slip up or relapse make it hard to judge how "addictive" something is independent of the socialization of it. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Park https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Park
- Zikes 11y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substance_dependence#/media/File:Development_of_a_rational_scale_to_assess_the_harm_of_drugs_of_potential_misuse_(physical_harm_and_dependence,_NA_free_means).svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substance_dependence#/media/Fi... According to the above chart, tobacco, whose addictiveness is driven by nicotine, ranks above the following in dependence: meth, alcohol, steroids, ketamines, and barbiturates. It's only slightly trailing cocaine. Caffeine isn't even on the chart, but even if that were due to "sociological perception", I've no doubt that it would be at the bottom-left of that chart.
  - sophacles 11y ago
    But you are now confusing tobacco with nicotine. The harm of tobacco is not driven by nicotine, even if the addictiveness is. Further, while the addictiveness of tobacco is primarily driven by nicotine, it is enhanced by MAOIs in tobacco as well by other substances: https://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/research-reports/tobacco/are-there-other-chemicals-may-contribute-to-tobacco-addiction https://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/research-reports/toba... Therefore the chart you link is not really that valid in terms of nicotine vs caffeine. In fact - many people who switch from tobacco to vaping report that it is a difficult switch. Part of it is that the act of vaping isn't the act of smoking, and it's a habit replacement problem. But other parts of that can easily be explained by the MAOIs (more studies are required of course). The other thing reported often, by people who switch to vaping then successfully quit all nicotine is that it's easier to quit vaping than it is to quit tobacco directly - this is probably due to just nicotine vs nicotine+ in tobacco. Finally - it is very hard to find studies on nicotine addiction independent of tobacco use. Seriously, until very recently, the way to get nicotine was via tobacco, so almost all claims about nicotine use are about tobacco use in general. The chemical pathways are understood, but the effects of just nicotine on long term dependence are all in the context of tobacco. Conversely the page on caffeine in wikipedia - under the heading "Reinforcement disorders" ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine#Reinforcement_disorders https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine#Reinforcement_disorde... ) does discuss that the claims of caffeine not being addictive are pretty contested. Basically your points about nicotine are not quite as solid as you claim.
trhway 11y ago
>Anything can be psychologically addictive with habitual use and what one might call an "addictive personality". Video games, work, porn, caffeine, bacon & eggs, all the same. Some of those things even have support groups, pills, patches, etc. >Nicotine is addictive on a scale far beyond that. Comparing caffeine and nicotine is like comparing nerf and 9mm. You seems to have nor knowledge nor direct experience to talk from. Video games, HN/FB/email checking and nicotine - all cause neurotransmitter release. That's what makes them addictive. And video games or the Internet related activities seem to release more of the neurotransmitter (dopamine) and as result much more addictive than nicotine. People quit nicotine (i stopped smoking 13 years ago after a decade of enjoying pack-a-day and i think all this "nicotine addiction" is almost non-existent thing, a scarecrow elephant that tobacco companies inflated out of a small fly to scare people from quitting) while people can't quit video games or the other Internet related activities once they got hooked up on it, ie. once the addiction got developed by establishing stimuli->dopamine reward cycle in the brain for that specific stimuli like the video game or HN comments.
- Zikes 11y ago
  I watched my dad try and fail half a dozen times to quit smoking over twenty years, and the thought that nicotine addiction is a myth perpetuated by Big Tobacco is so frankly ridiculous that I can't believe I'm dignifying it with a response. That, coupled with your claim that you were a pack-a-day smoker for a decade that apparently quit with relative ease, means that your mind is so apparently alien from the natural human condition that I honestly have no idea how to reason with you because I cannot even imagine what you would consider "reason" to be.

by Zikes 11y ago

sophacles 11y ago

This "nicotine is more addictive" concept is hard to understand for me. For the reasons I outline above. The timeline and severity of withdrawal symptoms aren't that different. The relapse to previous use levels isn't that different. A huge factor in how "bad" each is however seems to be in the responses to relapse. There's disapproval in people's responses to someone taking up nicotine again, but if someone is back to drinking coffee, there's at most a "oh drinking coffee again bob?". These factors in the consequences regarding a slip up or relapse make it hard to judge how "addictive" something is independent of the socialization of it. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Park https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Park

Zikes 11y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substance_dependence#/media/File:Development_of_a_rational_scale_to_assess_the_harm_of_drugs_of_potential_misuse_(physical_harm_and_dependence,_NA_free_means).svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substance_dependence#/media/Fi... According to the above chart, tobacco, whose addictiveness is driven by nicotine, ranks above the following in dependence: meth, alcohol, steroids, ketamines, and barbiturates. It's only slightly trailing cocaine. Caffeine isn't even on the chart, but even if that were due to "sociological perception", I've no doubt that it would be at the bottom-left of that chart.
- sophacles 11y ago
  But you are now confusing tobacco with nicotine. The harm of tobacco is not driven by nicotine, even if the addictiveness is. Further, while the addictiveness of tobacco is primarily driven by nicotine, it is enhanced by MAOIs in tobacco as well by other substances: https://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/research-reports/tobacco/are-there-other-chemicals-may-contribute-to-tobacco-addiction https://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/research-reports/toba... Therefore the chart you link is not really that valid in terms of nicotine vs caffeine. In fact - many people who switch from tobacco to vaping report that it is a difficult switch. Part of it is that the act of vaping isn't the act of smoking, and it's a habit replacement problem. But other parts of that can easily be explained by the MAOIs (more studies are required of course). The other thing reported often, by people who switch to vaping then successfully quit all nicotine is that it's easier to quit vaping than it is to quit tobacco directly - this is probably due to just nicotine vs nicotine+ in tobacco. Finally - it is very hard to find studies on nicotine addiction independent of tobacco use. Seriously, until very recently, the way to get nicotine was via tobacco, so almost all claims about nicotine use are about tobacco use in general. The chemical pathways are understood, but the effects of just nicotine on long term dependence are all in the context of tobacco. Conversely the page on caffeine in wikipedia - under the heading "Reinforcement disorders" ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine#Reinforcement_disorders https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine#Reinforcement_disorde... ) does discuss that the claims of caffeine not being addictive are pretty contested. Basically your points about nicotine are not quite as solid as you claim.

trhway 11y ago

>Anything can be psychologically addictive with habitual use and what one might call an "addictive personality". Video games, work, porn, caffeine, bacon & eggs, all the same. Some of those things even have support groups, pills, patches, etc. >Nicotine is addictive on a scale far beyond that. Comparing caffeine and nicotine is like comparing nerf and 9mm. You seems to have nor knowledge nor direct experience to talk from. Video games, HN/FB/email checking and nicotine - all cause neurotransmitter release. That's what makes them addictive. And video games or the Internet related activities seem to release more of the neurotransmitter (dopamine) and as result much more addictive than nicotine. People quit nicotine (i stopped smoking 13 years ago after a decade of enjoying pack-a-day and i think all this "nicotine addiction" is almost non-existent thing, a scarecrow elephant that tobacco companies inflated out of a small fly to scare people from quitting) while people can't quit video games or the other Internet related activities once they got hooked up on it, ie. once the addiction got developed by establishing stimuli->dopamine reward cycle in the brain for that specific stimuli like the video game or HN comments.

Zikes 11y ago
I watched my dad try and fail half a dozen times to quit smoking over twenty years, and the thought that nicotine addiction is a myth perpetuated by Big Tobacco is so frankly ridiculous that I can't believe I'm dignifying it with a response. That, coupled with your claim that you were a pack-a-day smoker for a decade that apparently quit with relative ease, means that your mind is so apparently alien from the natural human condition that I honestly have no idea how to reason with you because I cannot even imagine what you would consider "reason" to be.