6 ms·

It's all pretty ludicrous even on the surface. A lot of vaping proponents try to argue the relative safety of water vapor to smoke, but in the end it's still j

by Zikes 11y ago

It's all pretty ludicrous even on the surface. A lot of vaping proponents try to argue the relative safety of water vapor to smoke, but in the end it's still just a delivery method for various chemicals including nicotine. Not to mention the vapor is just as obnoxious as smoke.

sneak 11y ago
It's not water vapor, it's glycerin and propylene glycol, primarily. You'd be right, except that the vapor condenses in seconds and the effect on others nearby is below the threshold of measurement, whereas secondhand smoke lingers for minutes or hours and is extremely measurably harmful to anyone in proximity of a smoker. Nicotine itself isn't that harmful.
- Zikes 11y ago
  Nicotine is basically a synonym for addictive.
  - tptacek 11y ago
    Ever had a week of migraines from quitting coffee?
    - Zikes 11y ago
      Can't say I have, no.
      - tptacek 11y ago
        Caffeine is very addictive. Should we regulate it too?
        Zikes 11y ago
        When people start selling caffeine patches and joining support groups to quit drinking coffee, maybe we can visit that topic.
        tptacek 11y ago
        First, lots of people do have very real problems quitting caffeine. Second: the support groups and meds for quitting smoking are there because smoking actual cigarettes is harmful. Take the burning cigarette away and you're not very far from the situation we're in with caffeine.
        Zikes 11y ago
        "Caffeine addiction, or a pathological and compulsive form of use, has never been documented in humans." [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine_dependence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine_dependence
        sophacles 11y ago
        They sell caffeine pills, and: * http://caffeine.supportgroups.com/ http://caffeine.supportgroups.com/ * http://articles.latimes.com/1995-02-06/news/ls-28802_1_coffee-people http://articles.latimes.com/1995-02-06/news/ls-28802_1_coffe... * http://www.dailystrength.org/groups/caffeineaddicts http://www.dailystrength.org/groups/caffeineaddicts
        rDent 11y ago
        Excellent, here's a support group http://caffeine.supportgroups.com/ http://caffeine.supportgroups.com/ and here's some caffeine patches http://www.caffeineinformer.com/spot-on-energy-the-caffeine-addicts-patch http://www.caffeineinformer.com/spot-on-energy-the-caffeine-... Personally, I'm all for anything that reasonably reduces risk and improves health care outcomes.
  - trhway 11y ago
    > Nicotine is basically a synonym for addictive. the same is for caffeine, addiction hits at very low level of consumption : http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/psychiatry/research/BPRU/docs/Caffeine_Dependence_Fact_Sheet.pdf http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/psychiatry/research/BPRU/docs... Now imagine if every cup of your coffee came with a spoon of asbestos mixed with cadmium and radon powder. The problem with nicotine and its addiction isn't the nicotine or the addiction itself - they are basically harmless, like coffee. The problem is that typical nicotine delivery method - tobacco cigarette - causes people to inhale whole slew of carcinogenic chemicals. The vaping eliminates all those bad factors thus converting a very harmful habit into a habit of mild relaxation (basically the only effect of low levels of nicotine). The best one thing a government can do right now to improve health of the nation (and decrease Medicare expenses) in near future is to give away the e-cigs everywhere where tobacco is sold. To the Wikipedia link in the comment below - with all the respect to Wikipedia, my link above is from John Hopkins.
    - Zikes 11y ago
      "Caffeine addiction, or a pathological and compulsive form of use, has never been documented in humans." [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine_dependence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine_dependence
      - sophacles 11y ago
        There are big problems with addiction studies in general - in this case because needing a cup of coffee to start your day is considered just fine, whereas needing a drink to start your day is considered pathological. Being grumpy because of lack of coffee is generally understood and sympathized with. Being grumpy because you haven't had a bump today is considered a cocaine problem and compulsive behavior. There is so much socialization and stigma around various substances, that terms like compulsive and pathological are hard to use objectively.
        Zikes 11y ago
        Starting your day with bacon & eggs is just fine, too, unless you ask the vegans.
- esaym 11y ago
  Propylene glycol? That doesn't sound good: https://fscimage.fishersci.com/msds/19870.htm https://fscimage.fishersci.com/msds/19870.htm >"Skin: In case of contact, flush skin with plenty of water." >"Inhalation: If inhaled, remove to fresh air. If not breathing, give artificial respiration." I remember in the mid-1990's, there were many articles pointing the finger at propylene glycol in personal care products for increasing cancer rates. Even to this day I use Thai salt for deodorant as I don't want to be slathering propylene glycol all over me. I quick google search for 'propylene glycol' doesn't turn up too much for health risks. But still, I don't want the stuff touching, and I wouldn't want it in my lungs either.... Edit: and to the down voters, I am not anti-vape or anti tobacco. I think both are pretty cool. But as a neat freak, I don't want all my stuff smelling like smoke. And as a health conscious person, I don't want my last days on this earth ending with me on a hospital bed gasping for air from a failed respiratory system.
  - sophacles 11y ago
    Just a warning: if you go tonight clubs, concerts or haunted houses - basically anywhere that uses a fog machine - it's literally the same stuff.
  - rory096 11y ago
    Why did you quote the generic 'first aid measures' section? The 'health effects' section is far less alarming: >Skin: May be absorbed through damaged or abraded skin in harmful amounts. Allergic reactions have been reported. A single prolonged skin exposure is not likely to result in the material being absorbed in harmful amounts. Prolonged contact is essentially non-irritating to skin. Repeated exposures may cause problems. Negative results have consistently been obtained in guinea pigs studies for sensitization. 1,2-Propylene glycol is not considered an occupational skin sensitizer. (CHEMINFO) >Inhalation: Low hazard for usual industrial handling. Inhalation of a mist of this material may cause respiratory tract irritation. Material has a low vapor pressure at room temperature, so exposure to vapor is not likely.
    - esaym 11y ago
      To each their own I guess. Those sound even worse personally. "Inhalation: Low hazard for usual industrial handling." <- Industrial handling probably doesn't include smoking it....
trhway 11y ago
>. A lot of vaping proponents try to argue the relative safety of water vapor to smoke, but in the end it's still just a delivery method for various chemicals including nicotine. and so the coffee for caffeine >Not to mention the vapor is just as obnoxious as smoke. and so the vapor from your hot coffee.

by Zikes 11y ago

sneak 11y ago

It's not water vapor, it's glycerin and propylene glycol, primarily. You'd be right, except that the vapor condenses in seconds and the effect on others nearby is below the threshold of measurement, whereas secondhand smoke lingers for minutes or hours and is extremely measurably harmful to anyone in proximity of a smoker. Nicotine itself isn't that harmful.

Zikes 11y ago
Nicotine is basically a synonym for addictive.
- tptacek 11y ago
  Ever had a week of migraines from quitting coffee?
  - Zikes 11y ago
    Can't say I have, no.
    - tptacek 11y ago
      Caffeine is very addictive. Should we regulate it too?
      - Zikes 11y ago
        When people start selling caffeine patches and joining support groups to quit drinking coffee, maybe we can visit that topic.
        tptacek 11y ago
        First, lots of people do have very real problems quitting caffeine. Second: the support groups and meds for quitting smoking are there because smoking actual cigarettes is harmful. Take the burning cigarette away and you're not very far from the situation we're in with caffeine.
        Zikes 11y ago
        "Caffeine addiction, or a pathological and compulsive form of use, has never been documented in humans." [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine_dependence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine_dependence
        sophacles 11y ago
        They sell caffeine pills, and: * http://caffeine.supportgroups.com/ http://caffeine.supportgroups.com/ * http://articles.latimes.com/1995-02-06/news/ls-28802_1_coffee-people http://articles.latimes.com/1995-02-06/news/ls-28802_1_coffe... * http://www.dailystrength.org/groups/caffeineaddicts http://www.dailystrength.org/groups/caffeineaddicts
        rDent 11y ago
        Excellent, here's a support group http://caffeine.supportgroups.com/ http://caffeine.supportgroups.com/ and here's some caffeine patches http://www.caffeineinformer.com/spot-on-energy-the-caffeine-addicts-patch http://www.caffeineinformer.com/spot-on-energy-the-caffeine-... Personally, I'm all for anything that reasonably reduces risk and improves health care outcomes.
- trhway 11y ago
  > Nicotine is basically a synonym for addictive. the same is for caffeine, addiction hits at very low level of consumption : http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/psychiatry/research/BPRU/docs/Caffeine_Dependence_Fact_Sheet.pdf http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/psychiatry/research/BPRU/docs... Now imagine if every cup of your coffee came with a spoon of asbestos mixed with cadmium and radon powder. The problem with nicotine and its addiction isn't the nicotine or the addiction itself - they are basically harmless, like coffee. The problem is that typical nicotine delivery method - tobacco cigarette - causes people to inhale whole slew of carcinogenic chemicals. The vaping eliminates all those bad factors thus converting a very harmful habit into a habit of mild relaxation (basically the only effect of low levels of nicotine). The best one thing a government can do right now to improve health of the nation (and decrease Medicare expenses) in near future is to give away the e-cigs everywhere where tobacco is sold. To the Wikipedia link in the comment below - with all the respect to Wikipedia, my link above is from John Hopkins.
  - Zikes 11y ago
    "Caffeine addiction, or a pathological and compulsive form of use, has never been documented in humans." [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine_dependence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine_dependence
    - sophacles 11y ago
      There are big problems with addiction studies in general - in this case because needing a cup of coffee to start your day is considered just fine, whereas needing a drink to start your day is considered pathological. Being grumpy because of lack of coffee is generally understood and sympathized with. Being grumpy because you haven't had a bump today is considered a cocaine problem and compulsive behavior. There is so much socialization and stigma around various substances, that terms like compulsive and pathological are hard to use objectively.
      - Zikes 11y ago
        Starting your day with bacon & eggs is just fine, too, unless you ask the vegans.
esaym 11y ago
Propylene glycol? That doesn't sound good: https://fscimage.fishersci.com/msds/19870.htm https://fscimage.fishersci.com/msds/19870.htm >"Skin: In case of contact, flush skin with plenty of water." >"Inhalation: If inhaled, remove to fresh air. If not breathing, give artificial respiration." I remember in the mid-1990's, there were many articles pointing the finger at propylene glycol in personal care products for increasing cancer rates. Even to this day I use Thai salt for deodorant as I don't want to be slathering propylene glycol all over me. I quick google search for 'propylene glycol' doesn't turn up too much for health risks. But still, I don't want the stuff touching, and I wouldn't want it in my lungs either.... Edit: and to the down voters, I am not anti-vape or anti tobacco. I think both are pretty cool. But as a neat freak, I don't want all my stuff smelling like smoke. And as a health conscious person, I don't want my last days on this earth ending with me on a hospital bed gasping for air from a failed respiratory system.
- sophacles 11y ago
  Just a warning: if you go tonight clubs, concerts or haunted houses - basically anywhere that uses a fog machine - it's literally the same stuff.
- rory096 11y ago
  Why did you quote the generic 'first aid measures' section? The 'health effects' section is far less alarming: >Skin: May be absorbed through damaged or abraded skin in harmful amounts. Allergic reactions have been reported. A single prolonged skin exposure is not likely to result in the material being absorbed in harmful amounts. Prolonged contact is essentially non-irritating to skin. Repeated exposures may cause problems. Negative results have consistently been obtained in guinea pigs studies for sensitization. 1,2-Propylene glycol is not considered an occupational skin sensitizer. (CHEMINFO) >Inhalation: Low hazard for usual industrial handling. Inhalation of a mist of this material may cause respiratory tract irritation. Material has a low vapor pressure at room temperature, so exposure to vapor is not likely.
  - esaym 11y ago
    To each their own I guess. Those sound even worse personally. "Inhalation: Low hazard for usual industrial handling." <- Industrial handling probably doesn't include smoking it....

trhway 11y ago

>. A lot of vaping proponents try to argue the relative safety of water vapor to smoke, but in the end it's still just a delivery method for various chemicals including nicotine. and so the coffee for caffeine >Not to mention the vapor is just as obnoxious as smoke. and so the vapor from your hot coffee.