3 ms·

So, your theory is that selection pressure for [various things] resulted in adapted genes. One of the major questions this position has to answer is: why did t

by curi 19y ago

So, your theory is that selection pressure for [various things] resulted in adapted genes. One of the major questions this position has to answer is: why did that selection pressure result in adapted genes instead of adapted memes? Prima facie, it would result in adapted memes, because memes evolve faster -- they have much shorter generations.

Tichy 19y ago
Well, I would recommend the book "Why is sex fun" by Jared Diamond. I don't know all the theories anymore, but the gist is that there is/was a biological arms race between men and women. For example, the reason that women have to be inseminated inside their bodies is so that men can not be sure who is the father of the women's babies. Because otherwise, men are prone to killing offspring of other men (at least in the animal kingdom). Now, if a woman sleeps with another man, we still can not be sure that she is not carrying our baby. At least that is one theory, as far as I remember. There are several more aspects that come into play. There actually was one chapter with the theory that men go hunting to impress women (and I would be ready to make the leap and equate hunting with startupping). Gathering would be more energy efficient than hunting, but hunting allows men to come home as bigshots, make a big party, and impress lots of women. That theory was only based on one study of a primitive society, though, so I guess the evidence is not yet very strong. Just a theory... Anyway, a good book to read in my opinion. Other than that, I am not sure I agree to your question. Men and women certainly have different genes, have they not? I think the asymmetry is inherent in the problem of growing a baby inside of your body. Perhaps it would have been possible to allow both men and women to get pregnant, but it might have been too much overhead (although there are animals that can switch gender, and come to think about it, there are human hermaphrodites). Most animals seem to have a difference between men and women - for example the spiders that eat their mates...
- curi 19y ago
  The point of the question is that, unless you can answer it (generally, or in particular cases), then it implies that once culture existed, culture met all selection pressures. Men and women do have genetic differences, which they had before culture existed. But the thing at issue is whether modern-day, high-level personality features are a genetic difference, or not.
  - Tichy 19y ago
    Culture responds to the genetic preconditions. Of course monogamy, marriage etc are memes, but they exist because of the biological necessity. Culture can't change the biological needs - no matter what culture, babies need to eat.
    - curi 19y ago
      Are you saying you think all reasonable cultures would deal with (respond to) our biology by treating women in such a way that they don't like to do startups as much as men? What is it about female biology which is so adverse to startups that many layers of culture interpretation can't possibly do anything about it?
      - Tichy 19y ago
        No, I am not saying that. The biological conditions are changing - there is the pill, there was a guy recently who cloned himself from his own skin, there is genetic testing for fatherhood etc. Things like that might change the scales in the gender war. Even without the technology there are different ways society reacts. Polygamy should in theory raise the value of women (even fewer women available per men if some men have several women). But some societies reacted by putting women behind veils and removing them from the market by force. I can imagine a culture, for example, where men do nothing and just force women to do startups. So it definitely is possible. What I claim, though, is that the current situation in western societies might not be due to repression of women, but due to other factors. And those stem from biological differences, which give men and women different sorts of weapons in the gender war. As the example of life-expectancy shows, it is not clear to me that women are currently getting the worse deal.
        curi 19y ago
        I see that with present technology, mothers need a few month vacation per child at the end of pregnancy and for physical recovery after. This is a fairly minor thing, and it is no reason a culture must assign people wildly different roles and personalities. You'll probably say the mother will want time to raise her kid. But that could equally well be true of the father -- can't you imagine a culture where fathers are expected to stay home more and raise children, and mothers aren't? There's nothing impossible about that. Or it could be treated equally.

by curi 19y ago

Tichy 19y ago

Well, I would recommend the book "Why is sex fun" by Jared Diamond. I don't know all the theories anymore, but the gist is that there is/was a biological arms race between men and women. For example, the reason that women have to be inseminated inside their bodies is so that men can not be sure who is the father of the women's babies. Because otherwise, men are prone to killing offspring of other men (at least in the animal kingdom). Now, if a woman sleeps with another man, we still can not be sure that she is not carrying our baby. At least that is one theory, as far as I remember. There are several more aspects that come into play. There actually was one chapter with the theory that men go hunting to impress women (and I would be ready to make the leap and equate hunting with startupping). Gathering would be more energy efficient than hunting, but hunting allows men to come home as bigshots, make a big party, and impress lots of women. That theory was only based on one study of a primitive society, though, so I guess the evidence is not yet very strong. Just a theory... Anyway, a good book to read in my opinion. Other than that, I am not sure I agree to your question. Men and women certainly have different genes, have they not? I think the asymmetry is inherent in the problem of growing a baby inside of your body. Perhaps it would have been possible to allow both men and women to get pregnant, but it might have been too much overhead (although there are animals that can switch gender, and come to think about it, there are human hermaphrodites). Most animals seem to have a difference between men and women - for example the spiders that eat their mates...

curi 19y ago
The point of the question is that, unless you can answer it (generally, or in particular cases), then it implies that once culture existed, culture met all selection pressures. Men and women do have genetic differences, which they had before culture existed. But the thing at issue is whether modern-day, high-level personality features are a genetic difference, or not.
- Tichy 19y ago
  Culture responds to the genetic preconditions. Of course monogamy, marriage etc are memes, but they exist because of the biological necessity. Culture can't change the biological needs - no matter what culture, babies need to eat.
  - curi 19y ago
    Are you saying you think all reasonable cultures would deal with (respond to) our biology by treating women in such a way that they don't like to do startups as much as men? What is it about female biology which is so adverse to startups that many layers of culture interpretation can't possibly do anything about it?
    - Tichy 19y ago
      No, I am not saying that. The biological conditions are changing - there is the pill, there was a guy recently who cloned himself from his own skin, there is genetic testing for fatherhood etc. Things like that might change the scales in the gender war. Even without the technology there are different ways society reacts. Polygamy should in theory raise the value of women (even fewer women available per men if some men have several women). But some societies reacted by putting women behind veils and removing them from the market by force. I can imagine a culture, for example, where men do nothing and just force women to do startups. So it definitely is possible. What I claim, though, is that the current situation in western societies might not be due to repression of women, but due to other factors. And those stem from biological differences, which give men and women different sorts of weapons in the gender war. As the example of life-expectancy shows, it is not clear to me that women are currently getting the worse deal.
      - curi 19y ago
        I see that with present technology, mothers need a few month vacation per child at the end of pregnancy and for physical recovery after. This is a fairly minor thing, and it is no reason a culture must assign people wildly different roles and personalities. You'll probably say the mother will want time to raise her kid. But that could equally well be true of the father -- can't you imagine a culture where fathers are expected to stay home more and raise children, and mothers aren't? There's nothing impossible about that. Or it could be treated equally.