5 ms·

$75,000 isn't market wages for a developer?

aaronbrethorst 11y ago
Not in SF, where the median rent is now $4,225/month, or $50,700/year. Realistically, you can't even expect to take home $50,700 on a gross income of $75k. http://blog.sfgate.com/ontheblock/2015/06/02/san-franciscos-median-rent-hits-a-ridiculous-4225/ http://blog.sfgate.com/ontheblock/2015/06/02/san-franciscos-...
- pen2l 11y ago
  I've been thinking about this lately. Why doesn't Google or Facebook just pack up one day and go to... say, Detroit? Buy a shitload of property there, and tell all their workers that in the course of the next 5 years they want to have presence in two places: this new place in Detroit, and the old place in the Valley. Whoever wants to stay in the valley can stay... and whoever wants to move to Detroit can come move to Detroit. Same pay. It would win a lot of good will... and it makes sense. The engineers making $150k will actually live what living on $150k is supposed to feel like. It'll jumpstart the hell out of Detroit... etc. etc. Not necessarily Detroit (I just chose to say Detroit because property there is so much down the shit that you can buy a sizable portion of the city for a good few million).
  - deftnerd 11y ago
    There is a long history of Company Towns in the United States. At their peak in the first half of the 1900's, about 3% of the population lived in one. At the time, it was seen by the industrialists as a way to raise their workers into the middle class. "Paternalism was considered by many nineteenth-century businessmen as a moral responsibility, or often a religious obligation, which would advance society whilst furthering their own business interests. Accordingly, the company town offered a unique opportunity to achieve such ends." "Although economically successful, company towns sometimes failed politically due to a lack of elected officials and municipally owned services. Accordingly, workers often had no say in local affairs and therefore, felt dictated. Ultimately, this political climate caused resentment amongst workers and resulted in many residents eventually losing long-term affection for their towns." Perhaps it is time for a new company town concept being pushed by one of the big tech firms. Apple, Microsoft, Facebook, or Google might be able to pull it off. It could also be a test bed for their new technologies. [*] Quoted paragraphs lifted from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_town https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_town
  - binarycrusader 11y ago
    Because money alone isn't enough; you need good schools, roads, and other public services.
    - cookiecaper 11y ago
      Which follow when you send in the money. Not because throwing more cash at something is a magic fix, but because people that are capable of earning more money won't accept less.
      - binarycrusader 11y ago
        Yes, but for the typical sort of talent that Apple, Google, Facebook, etc. want to hire, you need those things first. Also, while those companies could start a long-term investment in an area, it's not something that could be done in a year or two, and ultimately they could only influence the process. You need relatively successful leadership in that community to start to ensure those things happen -- the money alone isn't enough.
  - pbreit 11y ago
    Because the Bay Area has a lot more attractions than tech jobs.
  - Johnny555 11y ago
    One reason is because Detroit has 24x7 winter -- in the Bay Area it's a 4 hour drive to winter so you only experience it when (and if) you want to.
  - sawthat 11y ago
    Well, Google and Facebook are both extremely profitable, so the wages they are paying their employees aren't hurting them at all.
  - prostoalex 11y ago
    1) Facebook or Google already have offices in Seattle, Los Angeles, Austin and other lower-priced locales. 2) The moving scenario works great for single people with no attachments, less so for married people with non-Facebook and non-Google spouses, even less so for such married people living in a school district they like. 3) Even with a single non-attached engineer, how many are company men dreaming about retiring from the same company they work for nowadays? How many are just using Facebook/Google as springboard for their "next step", be it a switch to another large company, fast-growing startup or doing your own startup? 4) If you're not independently wealthy, you want to hedge your bets. Being let go of an engineering job in the Valley is probably less onerous than being laid off from software engineering field in Detroit, as far as job searches, networking, and sacrifices one has to make.
  - mikey_p 11y ago
    Do you mean Portland? It's a short flight from SF, in the same timezone, and has a huge software culture. But even Portlanders are now complaining about the tech industry taking over and driving up rent.
- serpentor 11y ago
  Yikes! I thought NYC was bad. ...and yeah, I was thinking more in terms of national averages, not specific metropolitan areas.
- porsupah 11y ago
  Is it actually that bad? SF rents are certainly not low, but if you check Craigslist/PadMapper, it would seem difficult to pay $4k, let alone that being the median.
  - mrjaeger 11y ago
    That number is for all apartments (http://blog.sfgate.com/ontheblock/2015/06/02/san-franciscos-median-rent-hits-a-ridiculous-4225/ http://blog.sfgate.com/ontheblock/2015/06/02/san-franciscos-...). So this lumps in studios, 1 BRs, 2BRs etc. When you consider that it is (slightly) less crazy. However the median rent for a 1BR is still $3,530 (http://sf.curbed.com/archives/2015/09/03/san_franciscos_median_rent_hits_yet_another_new_high.php http://sf.curbed.com/archives/2015/09/03/san_franciscos_medi...). More anecdotally it is basically impossible to get a studio for less than $2k or a 1BR for less than $2.5k-$3k. I pay ~$1700 but have 1 bedroom in a 4BR apartment. If you are willing to live with roommates rent can start to become "reasonable" (assuming a $100k+ salary), but you're kind of screwed in SF proper if you want to be on your own and pay less than $2k.
    - voltagex_ 11y ago
      That's ridiculous. You're talking about the kind of money I paid in mortgage repayments for a 2 bedroom house 12km outside of Canberra, Australia.
      - draw_down 11y ago
        The prices go down 12km outside of SF too. (Not to that level, but still)
      - sampotts 11y ago
        But comparing Canberra to SF isn't fair. Compare it to Sydney. It's $2k here easily a month for a 2 bed place to rent, depending on the suburb.
        aaronbrethorst 11y ago
- prostoalex 11y ago
  Yeah, but divide that rent rate by 8 roommates ...

Not in SF, where the median rent is now $4,225/month, or $50,700/year. Realistically, you can't even expect to take home $50,700 on a gross income of $75k. http://blog.sfgate.com/ontheblock/2015/06/02/san-franciscos-median-rent-hits-a-ridiculous-4225/ http://blog.sfgate.com/ontheblock/2015/06/02/san-franciscos-...

pen2l 11y ago
I've been thinking about this lately. Why doesn't Google or Facebook just pack up one day and go to... say, Detroit? Buy a shitload of property there, and tell all their workers that in the course of the next 5 years they want to have presence in two places: this new place in Detroit, and the old place in the Valley. Whoever wants to stay in the valley can stay... and whoever wants to move to Detroit can come move to Detroit. Same pay. It would win a lot of good will... and it makes sense. The engineers making $150k will actually live what living on $150k is supposed to feel like. It'll jumpstart the hell out of Detroit... etc. etc. Not necessarily Detroit (I just chose to say Detroit because property there is so much down the shit that you can buy a sizable portion of the city for a good few million).
- deftnerd 11y ago
  There is a long history of Company Towns in the United States. At their peak in the first half of the 1900's, about 3% of the population lived in one. At the time, it was seen by the industrialists as a way to raise their workers into the middle class. "Paternalism was considered by many nineteenth-century businessmen as a moral responsibility, or often a religious obligation, which would advance society whilst furthering their own business interests. Accordingly, the company town offered a unique opportunity to achieve such ends." "Although economically successful, company towns sometimes failed politically due to a lack of elected officials and municipally owned services. Accordingly, workers often had no say in local affairs and therefore, felt dictated. Ultimately, this political climate caused resentment amongst workers and resulted in many residents eventually losing long-term affection for their towns." Perhaps it is time for a new company town concept being pushed by one of the big tech firms. Apple, Microsoft, Facebook, or Google might be able to pull it off. It could also be a test bed for their new technologies. [*] Quoted paragraphs lifted from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_town https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_town
- binarycrusader 11y ago
  Because money alone isn't enough; you need good schools, roads, and other public services.
  - cookiecaper 11y ago
    Which follow when you send in the money. Not because throwing more cash at something is a magic fix, but because people that are capable of earning more money won't accept less.
    - binarycrusader 11y ago
      Yes, but for the typical sort of talent that Apple, Google, Facebook, etc. want to hire, you need those things first. Also, while those companies could start a long-term investment in an area, it's not something that could be done in a year or two, and ultimately they could only influence the process. You need relatively successful leadership in that community to start to ensure those things happen -- the money alone isn't enough.
- pbreit 11y ago
  Because the Bay Area has a lot more attractions than tech jobs.
- Johnny555 11y ago
  One reason is because Detroit has 24x7 winter -- in the Bay Area it's a 4 hour drive to winter so you only experience it when (and if) you want to.
- sawthat 11y ago
  Well, Google and Facebook are both extremely profitable, so the wages they are paying their employees aren't hurting them at all.
- prostoalex 11y ago
  1) Facebook or Google already have offices in Seattle, Los Angeles, Austin and other lower-priced locales. 2) The moving scenario works great for single people with no attachments, less so for married people with non-Facebook and non-Google spouses, even less so for such married people living in a school district they like. 3) Even with a single non-attached engineer, how many are company men dreaming about retiring from the same company they work for nowadays? How many are just using Facebook/Google as springboard for their "next step", be it a switch to another large company, fast-growing startup or doing your own startup? 4) If you're not independently wealthy, you want to hedge your bets. Being let go of an engineering job in the Valley is probably less onerous than being laid off from software engineering field in Detroit, as far as job searches, networking, and sacrifices one has to make.
- mikey_p 11y ago
  Do you mean Portland? It's a short flight from SF, in the same timezone, and has a huge software culture. But even Portlanders are now complaining about the tech industry taking over and driving up rent.
serpentor 11y ago
Yikes! I thought NYC was bad. ...and yeah, I was thinking more in terms of national averages, not specific metropolitan areas.
porsupah 11y ago
Is it actually that bad? SF rents are certainly not low, but if you check Craigslist/PadMapper, it would seem difficult to pay $4k, let alone that being the median.
- mrjaeger 11y ago
  That number is for all apartments (http://blog.sfgate.com/ontheblock/2015/06/02/san-franciscos-median-rent-hits-a-ridiculous-4225/ http://blog.sfgate.com/ontheblock/2015/06/02/san-franciscos-...). So this lumps in studios, 1 BRs, 2BRs etc. When you consider that it is (slightly) less crazy. However the median rent for a 1BR is still $3,530 (http://sf.curbed.com/archives/2015/09/03/san_franciscos_median_rent_hits_yet_another_new_high.php http://sf.curbed.com/archives/2015/09/03/san_franciscos_medi...). More anecdotally it is basically impossible to get a studio for less than $2k or a 1BR for less than $2.5k-$3k. I pay ~$1700 but have 1 bedroom in a 4BR apartment. If you are willing to live with roommates rent can start to become "reasonable" (assuming a $100k+ salary), but you're kind of screwed in SF proper if you want to be on your own and pay less than $2k.
  - voltagex_ 11y ago
    That's ridiculous. You're talking about the kind of money I paid in mortgage repayments for a 2 bedroom house 12km outside of Canberra, Australia.
    - draw_down 11y ago
      The prices go down 12km outside of SF too. (Not to that level, but still)
    - sampotts 11y ago
      But comparing Canberra to SF isn't fair. Compare it to Sydney. It's $2k here easily a month for a 2 bed place to rent, depending on the suburb.
      - aaronbrethorst 11y ago
prostoalex 11y ago
Yeah, but divide that rent rate by 8 roommates ...