3 ms·

It likely will. You revealed an unconscious bias you have. You think that focusing on diversity is lowering the hiring bar. This is a fundamentally biased po

by aeflash 11y ago

It likely will. You revealed an unconscious bias you have. You think that focusing on diversity is lowering the hiring bar. This is a fundamentally biased position -- it assumes minorities are worse tech workers. You're the top comment on a popular HN thread, many people are rebutting you, and are getting linked from many external sources. All it takes is one hiring manager to read this thread, realize their unconscious bias, and then realize that focusing on diversity does not compromise employee standards. Then a black person gets hired.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
- wpietri 11y ago
  Your ability to repeat your talking points is impressive. But you demonstrate zero engagement with any other views, zero understanding of the lived reality of minorities in tech, and zero understanding of the decades of research and discussion around racism and employment. The charitable assumption is that's accidental. There's no reason white people end up knowing about this stuff automatically. I sure didn't. But at some level of repetition and entrenched defense of an apparently naive position, it gets pretty hard to say, "Oh Steven2012 just doesn't know." It begins to look like you don't want to know. Which is also fine, really, as long as you own that and move along in spite of it. Maybe try that? It seems better than being the poster boy for statements like "I don't read HN often. But it can be instructive. You get to read unfiltered sentiment from ppl who don't realize they're misogynist/racist."
  - steven2012 11y ago
    Actually what is even more remarkable is your ability to smugly pooh pooh everyone's ideas and point out how everyone is a closet racist, despite their good intentions. What, pray tell, is your idea to increase diversity, and what have you personally done to increase diversity?
    - wpietri 11y ago
      Ah, yes, let's turn this around. No matter that you haven't addressed any of the criticisms of your comments. No matter that when you get replies you don't like, you just delete what you wrote rather than owning your words and working through your mistakes. (Let me know if you'd like a copy; I saved it for you.) No matter that I encouraged your one actual idea, which was to maybe start volunteering. No matter that you don't know anything about the research on or the history of this topic, yet feel qualified to judge other people. Let's do it. My idea? I don't need to have "my idea" to increase diversity. Other people have already had plenty of ideas. Better, they have discussed, researched, and critiqued those ideas. As a white guy, I'm unlikely to have any particularly good ideas, because I have little direct experience of the problem I'm trying to solve. I also try not to have ideas on products to create for the Chinese market, better approaches to goat herding, or the particle makeup of dark matter. I know I'm not an expert, so I'm not going to clutter the discussion talking like I am. And what am I actually doing? A fair number of things, but the most important of them is to listen. I talk with actual people about their actual experiences. Via RSS and Twitter, I follow a lot of people who think and write about this stuff. I read studies on the topic. I read about America's incredibly fucked-up racial history, and about how we're still dealing with the effects of that today. I listen to actual minorities in tech about their actual experiences. And ones outside of tech, too. I encourage you to try it. Because then you'd know that racial bias is widespread in the US despite "good intentions" [1]. You'd know that outbursts like this are a symptom of white fragility [2]. You'd know about the white savior complex, where a white person decides the only solution to racism is for them to go share their time and wisdom with those poor unfortunates, ignoring the structural issues that created the situation. And then, once you get past the Racism 101 stuff, maybe you could help me and others who would like HN and the tech industry to have discussions on this that aren't somewhere on the horrific/remedial end of the spectrum. But take your time with the listening. It took me maybe 3 or 4 years of work. The hard part wasn't the learning, it was the unlearning of what I thought I knew. [3] [1] http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/blog/implicit-test/ http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/blog/implicit-test/ [2] http://www.alternet.org/culture/why-white-people-freak-out-when-theyre-called-out-about-race http://www.alternet.org/culture/why-white-people-freak-out-w... [3] http://bengtwendel.com/your-teacup-is-full-empty-your-cup/ http://bengtwendel.com/your-teacup-is-full-empty-your-cup/

by aeflash 11y ago

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

wpietri 11y ago
Your ability to repeat your talking points is impressive. But you demonstrate zero engagement with any other views, zero understanding of the lived reality of minorities in tech, and zero understanding of the decades of research and discussion around racism and employment. The charitable assumption is that's accidental. There's no reason white people end up knowing about this stuff automatically. I sure didn't. But at some level of repetition and entrenched defense of an apparently naive position, it gets pretty hard to say, "Oh Steven2012 just doesn't know." It begins to look like you don't want to know. Which is also fine, really, as long as you own that and move along in spite of it. Maybe try that? It seems better than being the poster boy for statements like "I don't read HN often. But it can be instructive. You get to read unfiltered sentiment from ppl who don't realize they're misogynist/racist."
- steven2012 11y ago
  Actually what is even more remarkable is your ability to smugly pooh pooh everyone's ideas and point out how everyone is a closet racist, despite their good intentions. What, pray tell, is your idea to increase diversity, and what have you personally done to increase diversity?
  - wpietri 11y ago
    Ah, yes, let's turn this around. No matter that you haven't addressed any of the criticisms of your comments. No matter that when you get replies you don't like, you just delete what you wrote rather than owning your words and working through your mistakes. (Let me know if you'd like a copy; I saved it for you.) No matter that I encouraged your one actual idea, which was to maybe start volunteering. No matter that you don't know anything about the research on or the history of this topic, yet feel qualified to judge other people. Let's do it. My idea? I don't need to have "my idea" to increase diversity. Other people have already had plenty of ideas. Better, they have discussed, researched, and critiqued those ideas. As a white guy, I'm unlikely to have any particularly good ideas, because I have little direct experience of the problem I'm trying to solve. I also try not to have ideas on products to create for the Chinese market, better approaches to goat herding, or the particle makeup of dark matter. I know I'm not an expert, so I'm not going to clutter the discussion talking like I am. And what am I actually doing? A fair number of things, but the most important of them is to listen. I talk with actual people about their actual experiences. Via RSS and Twitter, I follow a lot of people who think and write about this stuff. I read studies on the topic. I read about America's incredibly fucked-up racial history, and about how we're still dealing with the effects of that today. I listen to actual minorities in tech about their actual experiences. And ones outside of tech, too. I encourage you to try it. Because then you'd know that racial bias is widespread in the US despite "good intentions" [1]. You'd know that outbursts like this are a symptom of white fragility [2]. You'd know about the white savior complex, where a white person decides the only solution to racism is for them to go share their time and wisdom with those poor unfortunates, ignoring the structural issues that created the situation. And then, once you get past the Racism 101 stuff, maybe you could help me and others who would like HN and the tech industry to have discussions on this that aren't somewhere on the horrific/remedial end of the spectrum. But take your time with the listening. It took me maybe 3 or 4 years of work. The hard part wasn't the learning, it was the unlearning of what I thought I knew. [3] [1] http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/blog/implicit-test/ http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/blog/implicit-test/ [2] http://www.alternet.org/culture/why-white-people-freak-out-when-theyre-called-out-about-race http://www.alternet.org/culture/why-white-people-freak-out-w... [3] http://bengtwendel.com/your-teacup-is-full-empty-your-cup/ http://bengtwendel.com/your-teacup-is-full-empty-your-cup/