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Does anyone else feel like they're just duplicating all the work done by Nix? I guess there's nothing wrong with multiple functional package managers. It just s

Does anyone else feel like they're just duplicating all the work done by Nix? I guess there's nothing wrong with multiple functional package managers. It just seems wrong to reject Nix just because it allows unfree software.

mbrock 11y ago
I feel like all the Linux distributions are duplicating work. And all the language-specific package managers. If everyone could just get along and work on the same thing... Well, they're not going to. Guix has a different language, different core values, different allegiances, probably different long-term plans. If I were to start thinking more seriously about the wasted effort in duplicated definitions of packages, I would probably end up thinking about using RDF linked data to define software dependencies and capabilities. Then you could generate Nix expressions, Guix things, RPMs, Docker containers, or what have you. The declarative model of Nix/Guix should work well with something like that.
- digi_owl 11y ago
  It may help to look at it akin to evolution.
  - emj 11y ago
    If only more people mutated thei package managers..
- sparkie 11y ago
  I hope you're not thinking of using Turtle or XML for defining packages in this system, as I would need to fork your project and define my packages in JSON-LD. I would also need to submit a proposal to the w3c to include 'rdf:SchemeLiteral' into the standard for compatiblity with existing infrastructure.
  - mbrock 11y ago
    Luckily the W3C people have been very careful to make sure that Turtle, XML, and JSON-LD are all interoperable, so I don't mind your fork, if the JSON syntax is more appropriate for your needs.
rekado 11y ago
The Guix project reuses the Nix daemon but it made different decisions at various points, such as using one unified language (Guile Scheme) for every part of the system, or how to configure the system; using Guile for everything (turning Guix into a regular Scheme library) has given rise to different tools and projects that use the library. The problem space is the same but there is not just one valid approach, even when we both decide on sticking to functional package management. I love Scheme, so working on Guix is a no-brainer for me, but also other decisions of the Guix project align more with my priorities, such as the desire to not let blobs (e.g. for bootstrapping Java) sneak in needlessly. The absence of non-free software is a feature, in my opinion.
civodul 11y ago
Guix indeed has a strong commitment to user freedom, which makes it a different project. Technically, I don't see it as "duplicating" Nix: Guix uses low-level parts of Nix that are awesome, and replaces higher-level layers with a more integrated and unified system. See https://arxiv.org/abs/1305.4584 https://arxiv.org/abs/1305.4584 for the technical rationale or the video on the home page on the concrete impact of those differences. Hacking GuixSD is a very different experience, I think! (Disclaimer: I maintain Guix and I'm a former NixOS hacker.)
- mbrock 11y ago
  Random lazy question: do you know about running GuixSD on AWS EC2? We're very happy with NixOS's AMI images, since they let us provision AWS instances extremely easily.
  - civodul 11y ago
    As far as I know nobody has tried so far, but that would be cool.
- thinkpad20 11y ago
  Does the Guix team have any interest in adding documentation to the Nix source code? Presumably you guys know a lot more about it than the average developer. I haven't spent a huge amount of time looking through the Nix source, but the times when I've had, I've found the documentation to be very anemic.
panglott 11y ago
I use Nix on Mac OS X, but would probably use Guix on Linux since it uses Scheme. I suspect they're complementary.
sdegutis 11y ago
GNU seems like the China of software. They write their own version of all existing tools, simply so they can have a copy of it that completely adheres to their principles.
- taylanub 11y ago
  I think that's a good thing when the principles are worth it. :-)
  - sdegutis 11y ago
    I understand and respect that position. In the specific cases of both China and GNU though, I think the principles are misguided and naive.
    - preid24 11y ago
      Would you say the same about the BSDs, who have rewritten software because it was under the GPL?
      - sdegutis 11y ago
        I understand and respect their position too, and while I think it's probably a waste of time and effort, I think they're a little less misguided than the GPL group. I use both GPL and BSD tools every day, so I'm mostly indifferent.
    - civodul 11y ago
      Free software aims to safeguard the freedom and autonomy of computer users. I think these are important features.

mbrock 11y ago

I feel like all the Linux distributions are duplicating work. And all the language-specific package managers. If everyone could just get along and work on the same thing... Well, they're not going to. Guix has a different language, different core values, different allegiances, probably different long-term plans. If I were to start thinking more seriously about the wasted effort in duplicated definitions of packages, I would probably end up thinking about using RDF linked data to define software dependencies and capabilities. Then you could generate Nix expressions, Guix things, RPMs, Docker containers, or what have you. The declarative model of Nix/Guix should work well with something like that.

digi_owl 11y ago
It may help to look at it akin to evolution.
- emj 11y ago
  If only more people mutated thei package managers..
sparkie 11y ago
I hope you're not thinking of using Turtle or XML for defining packages in this system, as I would need to fork your project and define my packages in JSON-LD. I would also need to submit a proposal to the w3c to include 'rdf:SchemeLiteral' into the standard for compatiblity with existing infrastructure.
- mbrock 11y ago
  Luckily the W3C people have been very careful to make sure that Turtle, XML, and JSON-LD are all interoperable, so I don't mind your fork, if the JSON syntax is more appropriate for your needs.

rekado 11y ago

The Guix project reuses the Nix daemon but it made different decisions at various points, such as using one unified language (Guile Scheme) for every part of the system, or how to configure the system; using Guile for everything (turning Guix into a regular Scheme library) has given rise to different tools and projects that use the library. The problem space is the same but there is not just one valid approach, even when we both decide on sticking to functional package management. I love Scheme, so working on Guix is a no-brainer for me, but also other decisions of the Guix project align more with my priorities, such as the desire to not let blobs (e.g. for bootstrapping Java) sneak in needlessly. The absence of non-free software is a feature, in my opinion.

civodul 11y ago

Guix indeed has a strong commitment to user freedom, which makes it a different project. Technically, I don't see it as "duplicating" Nix: Guix uses low-level parts of Nix that are awesome, and replaces higher-level layers with a more integrated and unified system. See https://arxiv.org/abs/1305.4584 https://arxiv.org/abs/1305.4584 for the technical rationale or the video on the home page on the concrete impact of those differences. Hacking GuixSD is a very different experience, I think! (Disclaimer: I maintain Guix and I'm a former NixOS hacker.)

mbrock 11y ago
Random lazy question: do you know about running GuixSD on AWS EC2? We're very happy with NixOS's AMI images, since they let us provision AWS instances extremely easily.
- civodul 11y ago
  As far as I know nobody has tried so far, but that would be cool.
thinkpad20 11y ago
Does the Guix team have any interest in adding documentation to the Nix source code? Presumably you guys know a lot more about it than the average developer. I haven't spent a huge amount of time looking through the Nix source, but the times when I've had, I've found the documentation to be very anemic.

panglott 11y ago

I use Nix on Mac OS X, but would probably use Guix on Linux since it uses Scheme. I suspect they're complementary.

sdegutis 11y ago

GNU seems like the China of software. They write their own version of all existing tools, simply so they can have a copy of it that completely adheres to their principles.

taylanub 11y ago
I think that's a good thing when the principles are worth it. :-)
- sdegutis 11y ago
  I understand and respect that position. In the specific cases of both China and GNU though, I think the principles are misguided and naive.
  - preid24 11y ago
    Would you say the same about the BSDs, who have rewritten software because it was under the GPL?
    - sdegutis 11y ago
      I understand and respect their position too, and while I think it's probably a waste of time and effort, I think they're a little less misguided than the GPL group. I use both GPL and BSD tools every day, so I'm mostly indifferent.
  - civodul 11y ago
    Free software aims to safeguard the freedom and autonomy of computer users. I think these are important features.