4 ms·

Agree with you. Girard is anti-scientific. It is the typical kind of guy who finds a pseudo-key (mimetics) and applies it to everything and everyone. And if you

by gbog 11y ago

Agree with you. Girard is anti-scientific. It is the typical kind of guy who finds a pseudo-key (mimetics) and applies it to everything and everyone. And if you ever dare to disagree you are also doing that because of mimetism. His theory is simplistic, not very novel, and cannot explain everything. One very big "hole" in his thinking is that for him no civilization can be accomplished without the Christ and its revelation. So, well, all those incredibly advanced East Asian civilisations? Thrown overboard! Never existed! Really solid thinkers like Paul Ricœur are a dozen levels higher and deeper than Girard. And, as HN is not a necrology website, I think it is a very good occasion to criticize a guy's theory the day his death is announced, why not?

bambax 11y ago
Thanks for your support, I seem to really need it!! ;-) Completely agree with your observation that it's ludicrous to argue that Christianity is consubstantial with human civilization; what about ancient Greece, for starters...?!? Some very original and deep thought about Christianity, as well as what it means to be "modern", can be found in another French author, Jacques Ellul, who like Girard is more well known in the US than in France (but didn't achieve rockstar status; he died in 1994).
- coldtea 11y ago
  >Completely agree with your observation that it's ludicrous to argue that Christianity is consubstantial with human civilization; what about ancient Greece, for starters...?!? Ancient Greece declined, and Greeks adopted Christianity among the very first -- because it solved many of the moral and social problems that led to the decline of their civilization. They actually had abandoned their old gods for a few centuries already, dwelling in eastern gods, neo-platonism, mysticism etc. But even more importantly, Girard, whether right or wrong, neither says that "Christianity is consubstantial with human civilization" nor ignores Ancient Greece.
  - bambax 11y ago
    > Ancient Greece declined, and Greeks adopted Christianity among the very first Not before having invented Western civilization, philosophy, mathematics, literature, etc. Thank God we didn't have to wait for Christ for maths, because we'd still be waiting.
    - coldtea 11y ago
      Yeah, we just had to wait on him for that lesser thing, all-encompassing trans-ethnic humane values. (And before someone shouts "Christianism didn't invent those", citing this or that precedent: sure. Like Apple with the iPod, it just created the first version of them people in large numbers cared about).
      - bambax 11y ago
        Jesus is the iPod of philosophy. Couldn't think of a better definition. Thanks for that.
        coldtea 11y ago
        No problem. Just don't underestimate the importance of the iPod (or christian ethics -- not just as an inhibitor, as they are now seen, but also as a progressive and important force for centuries).
      - mercurial 11y ago
        > Yeah, we just had to wait on him for that lesser thing, all-encompassing trans-ethnic humane values. > (And before someone shouts "Christianism didn't invent those", citing this or that precedent: sure. Like Apple with the iPod, it just created the first version of them people in large numbers cared about). What about, eg, buddhism? As for trans-ethnic, I thought this was a later addition to Christianity - after all, Jews are still the "chosen people", right?
        keane 11y ago
charlysisto 11y ago
Why anti scientific ? His theory is based on a lot of anthropological observations. He elaborates a very robust hypothesis with rigorous reasoning and comes up with a brilliant/thought-provoking and yet simple theory (so much more simple & elegant than freudian theory) on the structural role of religion, rituals and sacrifice in human societies. Overall you don't need to agree on everything he says or consider it as scientific ! Scientific proof anyway in human matters are hardly testable, subject to contradiction and ideological bias. So criticizing him because of a lack of scientific rigor is just bashing in an open door. However I don't know much about Paul Ricoeur, so I'd love to know what you consider great about his work.

by gbog 11y ago

bambax 11y ago

Thanks for your support, I seem to really need it!! ;-) Completely agree with your observation that it's ludicrous to argue that Christianity is consubstantial with human civilization; what about ancient Greece, for starters...?!? Some very original and deep thought about Christianity, as well as what it means to be "modern", can be found in another French author, Jacques Ellul, who like Girard is more well known in the US than in France (but didn't achieve rockstar status; he died in 1994).

coldtea 11y ago
>Completely agree with your observation that it's ludicrous to argue that Christianity is consubstantial with human civilization; what about ancient Greece, for starters...?!? Ancient Greece declined, and Greeks adopted Christianity among the very first -- because it solved many of the moral and social problems that led to the decline of their civilization. They actually had abandoned their old gods for a few centuries already, dwelling in eastern gods, neo-platonism, mysticism etc. But even more importantly, Girard, whether right or wrong, neither says that "Christianity is consubstantial with human civilization" nor ignores Ancient Greece.
- bambax 11y ago
  > Ancient Greece declined, and Greeks adopted Christianity among the very first Not before having invented Western civilization, philosophy, mathematics, literature, etc. Thank God we didn't have to wait for Christ for maths, because we'd still be waiting.
  - coldtea 11y ago
    Yeah, we just had to wait on him for that lesser thing, all-encompassing trans-ethnic humane values. (And before someone shouts "Christianism didn't invent those", citing this or that precedent: sure. Like Apple with the iPod, it just created the first version of them people in large numbers cared about).
    - bambax 11y ago
      Jesus is the iPod of philosophy. Couldn't think of a better definition. Thanks for that.
      - coldtea 11y ago
        No problem. Just don't underestimate the importance of the iPod (or christian ethics -- not just as an inhibitor, as they are now seen, but also as a progressive and important force for centuries).
    - mercurial 11y ago
      > Yeah, we just had to wait on him for that lesser thing, all-encompassing trans-ethnic humane values. > (And before someone shouts "Christianism didn't invent those", citing this or that precedent: sure. Like Apple with the iPod, it just created the first version of them people in large numbers cared about). What about, eg, buddhism? As for trans-ethnic, I thought this was a later addition to Christianity - after all, Jews are still the "chosen people", right?
      - keane 11y ago

charlysisto 11y ago

Why anti scientific ? His theory is based on a lot of anthropological observations. He elaborates a very robust hypothesis with rigorous reasoning and comes up with a brilliant/thought-provoking and yet simple theory (so much more simple & elegant than freudian theory) on the structural role of religion, rituals and sacrifice in human societies. Overall you don't need to agree on everything he says or consider it as scientific ! Scientific proof anyway in human matters are hardly testable, subject to contradiction and ideological bias. So criticizing him because of a lack of scientific rigor is just bashing in an open door. However I don't know much about Paul Ricoeur, so I'd love to know what you consider great about his work.