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I have no thoughts on Rene Girard, having never heard of him before. Still, just as a matter of civility, perhaps calling him a charlatan and criticizing his w

by edanm 11y ago

I have no thoughts on Rene Girard, having never heard of him before. Still, just as a matter of civility, perhaps calling him a charlatan and criticizing his work is something that we shouldn't do on a thread announcing his death. There are better places for this.

bambax 11y ago
That's like saying we shouldn't talk about gun control on the day of a mass shooting: when then? The thread "announcing" his death points to an article comparing him to Voltaire and Racine. Please. What really upsets me about Girard is his arrogance and how well it worked. It takes some balls to title a book "things hidden since the creation of the world" (meaning, nobody before me was able to think clearly). And it takes some admirable luck to have people fall for it.
- lentil_soup 11y ago
  Huh? Terrible analogy, he didnt die because of his theories or for being a "charlatan"
  - bambax 11y ago
    I'm sorry if this was ambiguous. The analogy isn't about death or how one dies, it's about what's "proper" and what isn't. People will always try to silence dissenting opinions by arguing it's not the proper time to voice them, that one should wait a while... until we have changed subjects and whatever you had to say can't even be heard anymore, that is. We shouldn't care about "proper"; the death of an author is an excellent opportunity to discuss his work, for and against, just as the effect of a policy is an excellent time to discuss the policy itself.
- edeion 11y ago
  You noticed that "things hidden since the creation of the world" is a quote from the Gospel, right? (Matthew, chapter 13, verse 35.) And that Girard's point is to show that the Gospel tries its best to uncover the scapegoating phenomenon?
  - bambax 11y ago
    Sure, here's the full verse: "So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet: “I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world." If you use this quote to title your book, how are you not identifying with the "prophet"? Matthew 13 ends with this: "Coming to his hometown, he began teaching the people in their synagogue, and they were amazed. [...] Where then did this man get all these things? [they asked] And they took offense at him. But Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his own town and in his own home.” It seems pretty obvious to me, by using this quote taken from this context, that Girard is referencing himself and seeing himself as Jesus, regretting that he's a prophet but in his own country...
    - vidarh 11y ago
      > If you use this quote to title your book, how are you not identifying with the "prophet"? I have not read the book, so maybe you have an impression based on the contents that justifies this, but standing on its own this statement is entirely ridiculous. How are you identifying with someone just by using a quote as the title of your book?
      - coldtea 11y ago
        >but standing on its own this statement is entirely ridiculous. Alas, it continues to be ridiculous after one has read the book too.
    - edeion 11y ago
      Somehow, I agree with you on the idea that Girard may consider himself a prophet. But, it must have been depressing for him since (as far as I understood him) he only reframed and repeated what he seemed to read everywhere in literature. As a layman, I try to sum it up from my memories: according to Girard, desire does not stand by itself. It only rises to meet another's desired object. Somehow: you don't desire a shiny car because of the shine of the car by itself, but only because someone already has or desires a shiny car. This phenomenon generates conflicts when the desired object can't be shared. This leads to crises in human groups where the only escape was traditionally to take someone (anyone, actually) as culprit for this crisis and kill them, honestly pretending that they are responsible the the group disease. I don't recall how, but Girard says that this killing cures the group. Which proves to the killers that 1) the scapegoat was indeed responsible for the trouble and 2) it was in the situation of providing the miraculous cure and is therefore some sort of goddess. This is what Girard explains but refutes to have found by himself. According to him, denouncing this unconscious process is the very purpose of the gospel. This is what has been hidden since the creation of the world.
- coldtea 11y ago
  >That's like saying we shouldn't talk about gun control on the day of a mass shooting: when then? Accusing of "charlatanism" is not merely "talking" or critique. Not to mention the main argument is quoting a "sceptic" webpage, the most cliched and crude approach to break all things non-analytical with a large hammer of scientism and naivety.

by edanm 11y ago

bambax 11y ago

That's like saying we shouldn't talk about gun control on the day of a mass shooting: when then? The thread "announcing" his death points to an article comparing him to Voltaire and Racine. Please. What really upsets me about Girard is his arrogance and how well it worked. It takes some balls to title a book "things hidden since the creation of the world" (meaning, nobody before me was able to think clearly). And it takes some admirable luck to have people fall for it.

lentil_soup 11y ago
Huh? Terrible analogy, he didnt die because of his theories or for being a "charlatan"
- bambax 11y ago
  I'm sorry if this was ambiguous. The analogy isn't about death or how one dies, it's about what's "proper" and what isn't. People will always try to silence dissenting opinions by arguing it's not the proper time to voice them, that one should wait a while... until we have changed subjects and whatever you had to say can't even be heard anymore, that is. We shouldn't care about "proper"; the death of an author is an excellent opportunity to discuss his work, for and against, just as the effect of a policy is an excellent time to discuss the policy itself.
edeion 11y ago
You noticed that "things hidden since the creation of the world" is a quote from the Gospel, right? (Matthew, chapter 13, verse 35.) And that Girard's point is to show that the Gospel tries its best to uncover the scapegoating phenomenon?
- bambax 11y ago
  Sure, here's the full verse: "So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet: “I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world." If you use this quote to title your book, how are you not identifying with the "prophet"? Matthew 13 ends with this: "Coming to his hometown, he began teaching the people in their synagogue, and they were amazed. [...] Where then did this man get all these things? [they asked] And they took offense at him. But Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his own town and in his own home.” It seems pretty obvious to me, by using this quote taken from this context, that Girard is referencing himself and seeing himself as Jesus, regretting that he's a prophet but in his own country...
  - vidarh 11y ago
    > If you use this quote to title your book, how are you not identifying with the "prophet"? I have not read the book, so maybe you have an impression based on the contents that justifies this, but standing on its own this statement is entirely ridiculous. How are you identifying with someone just by using a quote as the title of your book?
    - coldtea 11y ago
      >but standing on its own this statement is entirely ridiculous. Alas, it continues to be ridiculous after one has read the book too.
  - edeion 11y ago
    Somehow, I agree with you on the idea that Girard may consider himself a prophet. But, it must have been depressing for him since (as far as I understood him) he only reframed and repeated what he seemed to read everywhere in literature. As a layman, I try to sum it up from my memories: according to Girard, desire does not stand by itself. It only rises to meet another's desired object. Somehow: you don't desire a shiny car because of the shine of the car by itself, but only because someone already has or desires a shiny car. This phenomenon generates conflicts when the desired object can't be shared. This leads to crises in human groups where the only escape was traditionally to take someone (anyone, actually) as culprit for this crisis and kill them, honestly pretending that they are responsible the the group disease. I don't recall how, but Girard says that this killing cures the group. Which proves to the killers that 1) the scapegoat was indeed responsible for the trouble and 2) it was in the situation of providing the miraculous cure and is therefore some sort of goddess. This is what Girard explains but refutes to have found by himself. According to him, denouncing this unconscious process is the very purpose of the gospel. This is what has been hidden since the creation of the world.
coldtea 11y ago
>That's like saying we shouldn't talk about gun control on the day of a mass shooting: when then? Accusing of "charlatanism" is not merely "talking" or critique. Not to mention the main argument is quoting a "sceptic" webpage, the most cliched and crude approach to break all things non-analytical with a large hammer of scientism and naivety.