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"Sealioning a bit"? Did you really just accuse me of bad faith for asking you for the most basic of discussion content? Asking someone to prove their stance is

"Sealioning a bit"? Did you really just accuse me of bad faith for asking you for the most basic of discussion content? Asking someone to prove their stance is a negative, ever? Is this a thing you'd accuse someone of in a face to face conversation? Which, by the way, you did not do, which is why I asked for "concrete". A concrete example would be "This particular behavior in this particular community happened before the CoC was implemented, here's an example or two (link), the CoC addressed it in this way (link), and the negatve impacts you're worried about didn't manifest". Just saying "Python and Pycon" doesn't even begin to provide enough context. The only Pycon example I can think of off the top of my head is the height of incivility: getting people fired for jokes.

jordigh 11y ago
The sealioning is because you are requesting me to provide you with an extensive example that will satisfy your stringent needs and seem unwilling to do your own research. A more charitable approach would be to go and try to find examples on your own, explain what you looked for, and could not find. Instead, you are (in your eyes very politely) asking me to catalogue a comprehensive example that satisfies all of your bullet points to the letter. Yes, there was a much-publicised donglegate in Pycon 2013. But there was also a waiting line for the women's bathroom in Pycon 2015. Have you seen a waiting line for the women's bathroom at any other tech conference? And guess what, both Adria Richards and the man whose name I can't find quickly via a Google search were there at Pycon 2015 and the CoC was updated to indicate how to better handle incidents. Overall, Python has done a great work in being a friendlier place, and its insistence upon the code of conduct has in all probability helped.
- Karunamon 11y ago
  I've seen a waiting line at every bathroom for every conference I've ever attended. Waited in many of them too. One of the constants of the universe it seems - no matter how big the venue, there are never enough toilets. ...though what this has to do with people being jerks is unclear. Am I to understand the Pycon CoC addresses event coordination and venue selection? And there's a section in there about number of bathrooms? If so, now I definitely want a link, if not, I'm just grasping at straws admittedly, because I have no idea what your comment is supposed to be about otherwise. But apparently, asking you to prove a statement is "sea lioning". Asking someone to uphold the most basic characteristic of discussion among intelligent people, the burden of proof, is now somehow seen as a thing to be avoided. If we're going to talk about things on Hacker News, could they be please be done using the normal rules of debate/discussion instead of these bizzaro world ones?
  - jordigh 11y ago
    The point of mentioning the women's line is that most tech conferences are not inviting enough to women for there to be enough women to form a queue. The actual proportion of female participants can be easily found online, I think.
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
    - rockdoe 11y ago
      There's the prior of the total number of women involved with the (respective) tech, though. Of course it's a self-reinforcing cycle because the conferences being hostile is clearly one thing that'd keep them out.
- tzs 11y ago
  You said this: You:> Codes of conduct are not silliness. Almost everywhere that I have seen them implemented, I have seen a better atmosphere over that community. This implies that you have examples from personal experience readily at hand. He then said this: Him:> I'm curious, could you give a concrete example of a thing that a CoC has improved without simultaneously causing implicit pressure on people to remain silent about bad ideas in a project? You characterize this as: You:> The sealioning is because you are requesting me to provide you with an extensive example that will satisfy your stringent needs and seem unwilling to do your own research. A more charitable approach would be to go and try to find examples on your own, explain what you looked for, and could not find. Instead, you are (in your eyes very politely) asking me to catalogue a comprehensive example that satisfies all of your bullet points to the letter. What would be an acceptable way to you for someone to ask for you to share one of your examples?
  - jordigh 11y ago
    It wasn't so bad initially, which is why I said "a bit" and briefly mentioned one example or two (depends how you count). That was mostly ok. But as I expected, my example was quickly interrogated and scrutinised, and I did not feel like proceeding down that path.
    - Karunamon 11y ago
      I'm going to put this as delicately as possible, but if you don't want your points to be "interrogated and scrutinized", something that happens in any environment of healthy discussion, then you shouldn't be putting them out there in public on a discussion board. The truth has absolutely nothing to fear from questioning.
rockdoe 11y ago
There was some discussion about the Mozilla CoC in another sidethread here. If you constrast it with the LLVM CoC, there's an interesting tidbit in that the Mozilla one spells out explicitly that discussion in non-Mozilla spaces does not fall under the CoC and is a private matter. (This is in the LLVM one too, but much more implicitly) This is almost certainly a reaction to Mozilla being attacked for the political/religious views of some of their contributors. The case of the CEO is the most well known (and granted a bit exceptional, so I won't consider it further), but due to the actual diversity of the Mozilla community people on both extremes of the relative spectrum spoke out and the CoC makes it clear when they can do so without retribution in the project, provided they don't use project resources to spread their opinion. I think that's an example of a positive effect of a CoC.
- 13thLetter 11y ago
  > the Mozilla one spells out explicitly that discussion in non-Mozilla spaces does not fall under the CoC and is a private matter Now, see, that is good (and frankly, surprisingly sensible given some of Mozilla's past behavior.) I'd be much less concerned about a code that spelled out things like that. It's when CoC advocates strenuously fight against adding such terms that I get suspicious of their motives.

jordigh 11y ago

The sealioning is because you are requesting me to provide you with an extensive example that will satisfy your stringent needs and seem unwilling to do your own research. A more charitable approach would be to go and try to find examples on your own, explain what you looked for, and could not find. Instead, you are (in your eyes very politely) asking me to catalogue a comprehensive example that satisfies all of your bullet points to the letter. Yes, there was a much-publicised donglegate in Pycon 2013. But there was also a waiting line for the women's bathroom in Pycon 2015. Have you seen a waiting line for the women's bathroom at any other tech conference? And guess what, both Adria Richards and the man whose name I can't find quickly via a Google search were there at Pycon 2015 and the CoC was updated to indicate how to better handle incidents. Overall, Python has done a great work in being a friendlier place, and its insistence upon the code of conduct has in all probability helped.

Karunamon 11y ago
I've seen a waiting line at every bathroom for every conference I've ever attended. Waited in many of them too. One of the constants of the universe it seems - no matter how big the venue, there are never enough toilets. ...though what this has to do with people being jerks is unclear. Am I to understand the Pycon CoC addresses event coordination and venue selection? And there's a section in there about number of bathrooms? If so, now I definitely want a link, if not, I'm just grasping at straws admittedly, because I have no idea what your comment is supposed to be about otherwise. But apparently, asking you to prove a statement is "sea lioning". Asking someone to uphold the most basic characteristic of discussion among intelligent people, the burden of proof, is now somehow seen as a thing to be avoided. If we're going to talk about things on Hacker News, could they be please be done using the normal rules of debate/discussion instead of these bizzaro world ones?
- jordigh 11y ago
  The point of mentioning the women's line is that most tech conferences are not inviting enough to women for there to be enough women to form a queue. The actual proportion of female participants can be easily found online, I think.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - rockdoe 11y ago
    There's the prior of the total number of women involved with the (respective) tech, though. Of course it's a self-reinforcing cycle because the conferences being hostile is clearly one thing that'd keep them out.
tzs 11y ago
You said this: You:> Codes of conduct are not silliness. Almost everywhere that I have seen them implemented, I have seen a better atmosphere over that community. This implies that you have examples from personal experience readily at hand. He then said this: Him:> I'm curious, could you give a concrete example of a thing that a CoC has improved without simultaneously causing implicit pressure on people to remain silent about bad ideas in a project? You characterize this as: You:> The sealioning is because you are requesting me to provide you with an extensive example that will satisfy your stringent needs and seem unwilling to do your own research. A more charitable approach would be to go and try to find examples on your own, explain what you looked for, and could not find. Instead, you are (in your eyes very politely) asking me to catalogue a comprehensive example that satisfies all of your bullet points to the letter. What would be an acceptable way to you for someone to ask for you to share one of your examples?
- jordigh 11y ago
  It wasn't so bad initially, which is why I said "a bit" and briefly mentioned one example or two (depends how you count). That was mostly ok. But as I expected, my example was quickly interrogated and scrutinised, and I did not feel like proceeding down that path.
  - Karunamon 11y ago
    I'm going to put this as delicately as possible, but if you don't want your points to be "interrogated and scrutinized", something that happens in any environment of healthy discussion, then you shouldn't be putting them out there in public on a discussion board. The truth has absolutely nothing to fear from questioning.

rockdoe 11y ago

There was some discussion about the Mozilla CoC in another sidethread here. If you constrast it with the LLVM CoC, there's an interesting tidbit in that the Mozilla one spells out explicitly that discussion in non-Mozilla spaces does not fall under the CoC and is a private matter. (This is in the LLVM one too, but much more implicitly) This is almost certainly a reaction to Mozilla being attacked for the political/religious views of some of their contributors. The case of the CEO is the most well known (and granted a bit exceptional, so I won't consider it further), but due to the actual diversity of the Mozilla community people on both extremes of the relative spectrum spoke out and the CoC makes it clear when they can do so without retribution in the project, provided they don't use project resources to spread their opinion. I think that's an example of a positive effect of a CoC.

13thLetter 11y ago
> the Mozilla one spells out explicitly that discussion in non-Mozilla spaces does not fall under the CoC and is a private matter Now, see, that is good (and frankly, surprisingly sensible given some of Mozilla's past behavior.) I'd be much less concerned about a code that spelled out things like that. It's when CoC advocates strenuously fight against adding such terms that I get suspicious of their motives.