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HN moderators: It would probably be best if you buried my post. I idiotically misread the chart posted in the post. I originally thought the chart under ( http

HN moderators: It would probably be best if you buried my post. I idiotically misread the chart posted in the post. I originally thought the chart under ( https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/800/1*F9MLGQLTU2HZD4In6oNvlw.png https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/800/1*F9MLGQLTU2HZD4In6o... ) wasn't normalized to anything; but upon rereading i found that the top row is the comparison row and represents the percentages of working force age us citizens in the tech industry, which Twitter with its 1% falls far below. I'm sorry for my mistake. My original post below for context for the replies made to it, but which is otherwise useless. ------------------------------ It's alway a little confusing when people bring up diversity reports that aren't normalized to an appropiate comparison metric. (Possibly local demographics, or any number of more in-depth metrics. I also earlier suggested applicant demographics, but justizin pointed out those are not feasible.) Also see: https://xkcd.com/1138/ https://xkcd.com/1138/ To bring it into contrast with the article, he says: "<5% make up engineering and product management combined." According to this census report: http://www.bayareacensus.ca.gov/counties/SanFranciscoCounty.htm http://www.bayareacensus.ca.gov/counties/SanFranciscoCounty.... Race - Black or African American 48,870 6.1% The twitter numbers are thus a little below average, but not necessarily unexpected given where Twitter's headquarter is located. Edit: According to this, Twitter has roughly 30% asians: https://blog.twitter.com/2014/building-a-twitter-we-can-be-proud-of https://blog.twitter.com/2014/building-a-twitter-we-can-be-p... Which seems to fit the census as well: Race - Asian 267,915 33.3% Another Edit: To clarify, i am not saying that there is no problem. I'm merely saying that in order to solve a problem, one must both set appropiate goals, as well as correctly identify the root cause. Both of these can only be done usefully by applying statics correctly.

Kinnard 11y ago
That's a solid point. I don't know that that data is so accessible to anyone outside of a given companies HR department.
justizin 11y ago
You don't have to normalize the number fucking zero, but since a substantial amount of new hires at tech companies are imported, local demographics are impacted by hiring practices more than the inverse. Applicant demographics was, if you would fucking READ THE ARTICLE before saying some ignorant shit, exactly what the conflict was over. The VP Eng wanted to identify demographics based on last name, ignoring completely that the name of the person he was actually talking to failed that test, and that this individual ran demographic name recognition software against the engineering team at twitter with a successful recognition rate of 0%. Don't be a fuckhead. Be willing to accept this is a major fucking problem. IT IS.
- dang 11y ago
  This comment breaks the HN guidelines. Everyone posting here needs to be civil, regardless of how wrong or unfair someone else's comment may be. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html
  - larrys 11y ago
    Noting he was flagged 36 days ago. At what threshold does someone gets banned? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10297957 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10297957
ksenzee 11y ago
Does Twitter hire only from the local area? If they have a relocation program, the local demographics are a lot less relevant.
- Mithaldu 11y ago
  Very fair point, and a little hard to tackle. I have no solid answer either as to how to get fully correct statistics that actually help in evaluating just how bad the situation is, and where to start working on it. But, as you point out: One must take into account many factors in detail in order to get anything related to reality.
  - Zikes 11y ago
    Without fully correct statistics, how can anyone objectively say that there is a problem in the first place?
  - giaour 11y ago
    There are also many factors that have no bearing on a given matter. Bringing up local statistics in this instance can be interpreted as deliberate equivocation, which could explain some of the strong reactions to your comment.
    - Mithaldu 11y ago
      Possible. Personally i was thinking along the lines of: Maybe the real problem is whichever property of the area they are headquartered in prevents higher amounts of black people from living there. Which may, among others, turn out to be: Companies there are biased against black people, so they're relocated less often. However without looking at the situation closely, any conclusions drawn are premature.
- mazerackham 11y ago
  Twitter definitely has a relocation program. And in general, engineers move to the Bay Area in order to work at companies like Twitter.
guelo 11y ago
Most bay area tech workers have moved here after getting a job so the local census doesn't mean much.
- andreasklinger 11y ago
  It's even actually reenforcing itself based on the bias
Impossible 11y ago
Your numbers break down for the Hispanic\Latino population according to your own sources. The 2010 census says San Francisco has a 15.1% Hispanic population and Twitter has 3% Hispanic employees.
- Mithaldu 11y ago
  They only break down if you assume i'm saying there is no problem. ;)
dalke 11y ago
Based on my own cursory observations of the population flux in the Bay Area, I believe your analysis and thus conclusion is based on a false premise. That analysis assumes that the hiring base is predominately drawn from local people. Speaking anecdotally, I know many people who graduated from college and headed to the Bay Area to look for a job. I myself moved to Mountain View for a job, then later moved away. A more complete analysis along the lines you took would look at where people in engineering and product management were, say, 1 or 5 years previous. That are would likely better characterize the relevant population statistics. As an obviously contrived example, suppose people in engineering and product management are only in the Bay Area for 4 years, burn out, and leave, and suppose the companies offer free relocation from anywhere in the US. Then it doesn't make sense to look at the local demographics. As a more real-world case, consider a place like Los Alamos National Labs, which has a large number of people from around the world working there, with a relatively high turnover rate partially due to interns, post-docs, and visiting professors. Los Alamos county was carved out for the lab, so the demographics of the county reflect the lab, but most of the people working at the lab are not from Los Alamos. I do not have access to these sorts of numbers, merely pointing out how it's not easy to interpret the numbers you gave, or the certainty of your conclusion that it's a "not unexpected" result. I suspect the uncertainty is actually very high, and a shot-in-the-dark/back-of-the-envelope estimate isn't likely to be useful.
- Mithaldu 11y ago
  I did express the thought of "normalized to an appropiate" metric badly. I don't know what that metric is, and don't presume to know. Local demographics were just one example to me. I'll correct the post.
  - dalke 11y ago
    I quoted your use of "not unexpected" because it suggests that you have some expectation. I would call the the basis for that expectation part of a presumption that you know.
    - Mithaldu 11y ago
serge2k 11y ago
Alameda county right across the bridge is 12.6% black or african american, and Oakland in particular is 28%. Of course I think all this bears little relevance to a company that recruits candidates from pretty much anywhere.

Kinnard 11y ago

That's a solid point. I don't know that that data is so accessible to anyone outside of a given companies HR department.

justizin 11y ago

You don't have to normalize the number fucking zero, but since a substantial amount of new hires at tech companies are imported, local demographics are impacted by hiring practices more than the inverse. Applicant demographics was, if you would fucking READ THE ARTICLE before saying some ignorant shit, exactly what the conflict was over. The VP Eng wanted to identify demographics based on last name, ignoring completely that the name of the person he was actually talking to failed that test, and that this individual ran demographic name recognition software against the engineering team at twitter with a successful recognition rate of 0%. Don't be a fuckhead. Be willing to accept this is a major fucking problem. IT IS.

dang 11y ago
This comment breaks the HN guidelines. Everyone posting here needs to be civil, regardless of how wrong or unfair someone else's comment may be. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html
- larrys 11y ago
  Noting he was flagged 36 days ago. At what threshold does someone gets banned? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10297957 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10297957

ksenzee 11y ago

Does Twitter hire only from the local area? If they have a relocation program, the local demographics are a lot less relevant.

Mithaldu 11y ago
Very fair point, and a little hard to tackle. I have no solid answer either as to how to get fully correct statistics that actually help in evaluating just how bad the situation is, and where to start working on it. But, as you point out: One must take into account many factors in detail in order to get anything related to reality.
- Zikes 11y ago
  Without fully correct statistics, how can anyone objectively say that there is a problem in the first place?
- giaour 11y ago
  There are also many factors that have no bearing on a given matter. Bringing up local statistics in this instance can be interpreted as deliberate equivocation, which could explain some of the strong reactions to your comment.
  - Mithaldu 11y ago
    Possible. Personally i was thinking along the lines of: Maybe the real problem is whichever property of the area they are headquartered in prevents higher amounts of black people from living there. Which may, among others, turn out to be: Companies there are biased against black people, so they're relocated less often. However without looking at the situation closely, any conclusions drawn are premature.
mazerackham 11y ago
Twitter definitely has a relocation program. And in general, engineers move to the Bay Area in order to work at companies like Twitter.

guelo 11y ago

Most bay area tech workers have moved here after getting a job so the local census doesn't mean much.

andreasklinger 11y ago
It's even actually reenforcing itself based on the bias

Impossible 11y ago

Your numbers break down for the Hispanic\Latino population according to your own sources. The 2010 census says San Francisco has a 15.1% Hispanic population and Twitter has 3% Hispanic employees.

Mithaldu 11y ago
They only break down if you assume i'm saying there is no problem. ;)

dalke 11y ago

Based on my own cursory observations of the population flux in the Bay Area, I believe your analysis and thus conclusion is based on a false premise. That analysis assumes that the hiring base is predominately drawn from local people. Speaking anecdotally, I know many people who graduated from college and headed to the Bay Area to look for a job. I myself moved to Mountain View for a job, then later moved away. A more complete analysis along the lines you took would look at where people in engineering and product management were, say, 1 or 5 years previous. That are would likely better characterize the relevant population statistics. As an obviously contrived example, suppose people in engineering and product management are only in the Bay Area for 4 years, burn out, and leave, and suppose the companies offer free relocation from anywhere in the US. Then it doesn't make sense to look at the local demographics. As a more real-world case, consider a place like Los Alamos National Labs, which has a large number of people from around the world working there, with a relatively high turnover rate partially due to interns, post-docs, and visiting professors. Los Alamos county was carved out for the lab, so the demographics of the county reflect the lab, but most of the people working at the lab are not from Los Alamos. I do not have access to these sorts of numbers, merely pointing out how it's not easy to interpret the numbers you gave, or the certainty of your conclusion that it's a "not unexpected" result. I suspect the uncertainty is actually very high, and a shot-in-the-dark/back-of-the-envelope estimate isn't likely to be useful.

Mithaldu 11y ago
I did express the thought of "normalized to an appropiate" metric badly. I don't know what that metric is, and don't presume to know. Local demographics were just one example to me. I'll correct the post.
- dalke 11y ago
  I quoted your use of "not unexpected" because it suggests that you have some expectation. I would call the the basis for that expectation part of a presumption that you know.
  - Mithaldu 11y ago

serge2k 11y ago

Alameda county right across the bridge is 12.6% black or african american, and Oakland in particular is 28%. Of course I think all this bears little relevance to a company that recruits candidates from pretty much anywhere.