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> As part of his first edict, a Code of Conduct may happen Given the silliness endemic to many Codes of Conduct lately, this had me worried until I read throug

> As part of his first edict, a Code of Conduct may happen Given the silliness endemic to many Codes of Conduct lately, this had me worried until I read through the message. But he's really just talking about trying to focus emacs-devel@ on development, while moving tangential discussion to another list. (I guess tagging subjects "[OT]" or "[TAN]" would be a bit too retro.)

jordigh 11y ago
Codes of conduct are not silliness. Almost everywhere that I have seen them implemented, I have seen a better atmosphere over that community. And while John may have phrased the need for a CoC as a matter of making sure things stay on topic, there are several people who are put off by the hostility of e-devel and would like it if people remained civil.
- Karunamon 11y ago
  I'm curious, could you give a concrete example of a thing that a CoC has improved without simultaneously causing implicit pressure on people to remain silent about bad ideas in a project? "Civility" is, IMO, the least important thing in a project. Firstly because it can't be objectively defined, since some people find being told things like "no", "this is a terrible idea", etc to be uncivil, secondly because it means that people stop calling stuff crap that is actual crap. I also think it's silliness. If someone is an utterly disagreeable jerk, they should be ignored, or perhaps approached privately about their behavior, and then ignored if they don't knock it off. I don't see the need for a rigid, legalistic framework that can be abused as a cudgel against dissenters. This on the other hand sounds like less about "conduct" and more about dividing the lists into topically based groups, something that has zero abuse potential and is probably always a good idea.
  - jordigh 11y ago
    You're sealioning a bit with your first request, but off the top of my head, Python and Pycon are two examples. Also, codifying "be nice" isn't so impossible. It's the basis of all laws. And laws are not programming languages. They are all subjective and open to interpretation. This doesn't make them useless.
    - Karunamon 11y ago
      "Sealioning a bit"? Did you really just accuse me of bad faith for asking you for the most basic of discussion content? Asking someone to prove their stance is a negative, ever? Is this a thing you'd accuse someone of in a face to face conversation? Which, by the way, you did not do, which is why I asked for "concrete". A concrete example would be "This particular behavior in this particular community happened before the CoC was implemented, here's an example or two (link), the CoC addressed it in this way (link), and the negatve impacts you're worried about didn't manifest". Just saying "Python and Pycon" doesn't even begin to provide enough context. The only Pycon example I can think of off the top of my head is the height of incivility: getting people fired for jokes.
      - jordigh 11y ago
        The sealioning is because you are requesting me to provide you with an extensive example that will satisfy your stringent needs and seem unwilling to do your own research. A more charitable approach would be to go and try to find examples on your own, explain what you looked for, and could not find. Instead, you are (in your eyes very politely) asking me to catalogue a comprehensive example that satisfies all of your bullet points to the letter. Yes, there was a much-publicised donglegate in Pycon 2013. But there was also a waiting line for the women's bathroom in Pycon 2015. Have you seen a waiting line for the women's bathroom at any other tech conference? And guess what, both Adria Richards and the man whose name I can't find quickly via a Google search were there at Pycon 2015 and the CoC was updated to indicate how to better handle incidents. Overall, Python has done a great work in being a friendlier place, and its insistence upon the code of conduct has in all probability helped.
        Karunamon 11y ago
        I've seen a waiting line at every bathroom for every conference I've ever attended. Waited in many of them too. One of the constants of the universe it seems - no matter how big the venue, there are never enough toilets. ...though what this has to do with people being jerks is unclear. Am I to understand the Pycon CoC addresses event coordination and venue selection? And there's a section in there about number of bathrooms? If so, now I definitely want a link, if not, I'm just grasping at straws admittedly, because I have no idea what your comment is supposed to be about otherwise. But apparently, asking you to prove a statement is "sea lioning". Asking someone to uphold the most basic characteristic of discussion among intelligent people, the burden of proof, is now somehow seen as a thing to be avoided. If we're going to talk about things on Hacker News, could they be please be done using the normal rules of debate/discussion instead of these bizzaro world ones?
  - groby_b 11y ago
    If you are not capable of criticizing a bad idea without violating a CoC, you might just want to take a look at your communication style. They all amount to "please do not be a complete and utter asshole to other people", and I think that's a reasonable request to make. And no, civility is not the least important part. It matters a lot in day-to-day work. Many of us really are not interested in shouting matches as part of what we do. Part of that is that when you disagree with an idea, you voice what the actual issue is. "This idea is crap" helps nobody, except allowing a single person (the crap yeller) to move on with their lives. "This is a bad idea, and here's why" is a much more useful response, because the other person actually learns something, and presumably grows as a developer. They'll hopefully not make the same mistake again. This latter approach has a multiplicative component - valid ideas spread through the group. The yelling approach does nothing but alienate further contributors. As for your suggestion to just "ignore jerks" - no. They poison the culture. They actively exclude others with their behavior. And some of us get more jerks than others, and ignoring them takes a huge chunk of energy. And bystanders will still get to see all their jerkitude, because they don't know to ignore them yet. Of course people violating a CoC will be approached in private. All it does is give people a definition of what's OK/not OK, and a defined way to deal with it. You don't discuss CoC violations on the actual mailing list, but OOB. Every CoC I've seen so far has a well-defined procedure for handling complaints, off-list.
    - Karunamon 11y ago
      If that were the end of it, I would be completely on board with the concept. Most people are pretty good at determining when someone is just plain being a dick. (Which leads to "with that in mind, why the document?") Unfortunately, that never is the end of it. Again, certain people are oversensitive and respond to completely civil and good faith requests/criticisms/etc with over the top behavior/accusations (see this thread for example). It's part of HN's CoC to avoid saying things that you wouldn't say face-to-face to another person.. on divisive topics like this, it usually doesn't work (again, see this thread) unless someone with the admin bit steps in to remind people to behave themselves and occasionally hand out a vacation or two. The problem is that you've taken something that is inherently subjective to each and every person and tried to codify it. People do exist that hate being told "no", that hate all forms of disagreement and treat those who regularly do so as enemies to be destroyed. Given a vague legal method to retaliate, how do you think someone with such an unreasonable mindset will behave? Also, it's possible to be a complete and utter asshole without ever being uncivil. I've been witness to enough Wikipedia politics over the last 5 years or so to make that declaration. But anyways, you've just begged the question. It's not a given that the absence of CoC's results in "shouting matches", or for that matter, that their presence prevents them. In my own anecdotal-as-hell experience, they don't chase away anything but the most brash of assholes, it just results in a thin veneer of pseudo-civility over the same old crappy behavior and mindsets. It's a lot easier to eject loud and visible assholes than the stealth ones! In other words, I think it's better to have "Don't be an asshole" as an implicitly understood element of any social group, with implicitly understood punishments for breaking that norm, rather than codifying it in such a way that it gives people ideas as to how it can best be twisted and abused. (And should it come up: Yes, I find being accused of "sea lioning", whatever the hell that means, to be highly offensive and over the top.)
  - tptacek 11y ago
    You're on a site with a code of conduct right now (HN calls it something else, but it is if anything toothier than typical project codes of conduct).

jordigh 11y ago

Codes of conduct are not silliness. Almost everywhere that I have seen them implemented, I have seen a better atmosphere over that community. And while John may have phrased the need for a CoC as a matter of making sure things stay on topic, there are several people who are put off by the hostility of e-devel and would like it if people remained civil.

Karunamon 11y ago
I'm curious, could you give a concrete example of a thing that a CoC has improved without simultaneously causing implicit pressure on people to remain silent about bad ideas in a project? "Civility" is, IMO, the least important thing in a project. Firstly because it can't be objectively defined, since some people find being told things like "no", "this is a terrible idea", etc to be uncivil, secondly because it means that people stop calling stuff crap that is actual crap. I also think it's silliness. If someone is an utterly disagreeable jerk, they should be ignored, or perhaps approached privately about their behavior, and then ignored if they don't knock it off. I don't see the need for a rigid, legalistic framework that can be abused as a cudgel against dissenters. This on the other hand sounds like less about "conduct" and more about dividing the lists into topically based groups, something that has zero abuse potential and is probably always a good idea.
- jordigh 11y ago
  You're sealioning a bit with your first request, but off the top of my head, Python and Pycon are two examples. Also, codifying "be nice" isn't so impossible. It's the basis of all laws. And laws are not programming languages. They are all subjective and open to interpretation. This doesn't make them useless.
  - Karunamon 11y ago
    "Sealioning a bit"? Did you really just accuse me of bad faith for asking you for the most basic of discussion content? Asking someone to prove their stance is a negative, ever? Is this a thing you'd accuse someone of in a face to face conversation? Which, by the way, you did not do, which is why I asked for "concrete". A concrete example would be "This particular behavior in this particular community happened before the CoC was implemented, here's an example or two (link), the CoC addressed it in this way (link), and the negatve impacts you're worried about didn't manifest". Just saying "Python and Pycon" doesn't even begin to provide enough context. The only Pycon example I can think of off the top of my head is the height of incivility: getting people fired for jokes.
    - jordigh 11y ago
      The sealioning is because you are requesting me to provide you with an extensive example that will satisfy your stringent needs and seem unwilling to do your own research. A more charitable approach would be to go and try to find examples on your own, explain what you looked for, and could not find. Instead, you are (in your eyes very politely) asking me to catalogue a comprehensive example that satisfies all of your bullet points to the letter. Yes, there was a much-publicised donglegate in Pycon 2013. But there was also a waiting line for the women's bathroom in Pycon 2015. Have you seen a waiting line for the women's bathroom at any other tech conference? And guess what, both Adria Richards and the man whose name I can't find quickly via a Google search were there at Pycon 2015 and the CoC was updated to indicate how to better handle incidents. Overall, Python has done a great work in being a friendlier place, and its insistence upon the code of conduct has in all probability helped.
      - Karunamon 11y ago
        I've seen a waiting line at every bathroom for every conference I've ever attended. Waited in many of them too. One of the constants of the universe it seems - no matter how big the venue, there are never enough toilets. ...though what this has to do with people being jerks is unclear. Am I to understand the Pycon CoC addresses event coordination and venue selection? And there's a section in there about number of bathrooms? If so, now I definitely want a link, if not, I'm just grasping at straws admittedly, because I have no idea what your comment is supposed to be about otherwise. But apparently, asking you to prove a statement is "sea lioning". Asking someone to uphold the most basic characteristic of discussion among intelligent people, the burden of proof, is now somehow seen as a thing to be avoided. If we're going to talk about things on Hacker News, could they be please be done using the normal rules of debate/discussion instead of these bizzaro world ones?
- groby_b 11y ago
  If you are not capable of criticizing a bad idea without violating a CoC, you might just want to take a look at your communication style. They all amount to "please do not be a complete and utter asshole to other people", and I think that's a reasonable request to make. And no, civility is not the least important part. It matters a lot in day-to-day work. Many of us really are not interested in shouting matches as part of what we do. Part of that is that when you disagree with an idea, you voice what the actual issue is. "This idea is crap" helps nobody, except allowing a single person (the crap yeller) to move on with their lives. "This is a bad idea, and here's why" is a much more useful response, because the other person actually learns something, and presumably grows as a developer. They'll hopefully not make the same mistake again. This latter approach has a multiplicative component - valid ideas spread through the group. The yelling approach does nothing but alienate further contributors. As for your suggestion to just "ignore jerks" - no. They poison the culture. They actively exclude others with their behavior. And some of us get more jerks than others, and ignoring them takes a huge chunk of energy. And bystanders will still get to see all their jerkitude, because they don't know to ignore them yet. Of course people violating a CoC will be approached in private. All it does is give people a definition of what's OK/not OK, and a defined way to deal with it. You don't discuss CoC violations on the actual mailing list, but OOB. Every CoC I've seen so far has a well-defined procedure for handling complaints, off-list.
  - Karunamon 11y ago
    If that were the end of it, I would be completely on board with the concept. Most people are pretty good at determining when someone is just plain being a dick. (Which leads to "with that in mind, why the document?") Unfortunately, that never is the end of it. Again, certain people are oversensitive and respond to completely civil and good faith requests/criticisms/etc with over the top behavior/accusations (see this thread for example). It's part of HN's CoC to avoid saying things that you wouldn't say face-to-face to another person.. on divisive topics like this, it usually doesn't work (again, see this thread) unless someone with the admin bit steps in to remind people to behave themselves and occasionally hand out a vacation or two. The problem is that you've taken something that is inherently subjective to each and every person and tried to codify it. People do exist that hate being told "no", that hate all forms of disagreement and treat those who regularly do so as enemies to be destroyed. Given a vague legal method to retaliate, how do you think someone with such an unreasonable mindset will behave? Also, it's possible to be a complete and utter asshole without ever being uncivil. I've been witness to enough Wikipedia politics over the last 5 years or so to make that declaration. But anyways, you've just begged the question. It's not a given that the absence of CoC's results in "shouting matches", or for that matter, that their presence prevents them. In my own anecdotal-as-hell experience, they don't chase away anything but the most brash of assholes, it just results in a thin veneer of pseudo-civility over the same old crappy behavior and mindsets. It's a lot easier to eject loud and visible assholes than the stealth ones! In other words, I think it's better to have "Don't be an asshole" as an implicitly understood element of any social group, with implicitly understood punishments for breaking that norm, rather than codifying it in such a way that it gives people ideas as to how it can best be twisted and abused. (And should it come up: Yes, I find being accused of "sea lioning", whatever the hell that means, to be highly offensive and over the top.)
- tptacek 11y ago
  You're on a site with a code of conduct right now (HN calls it something else, but it is if anything toothier than typical project codes of conduct).