4 ms·

Seem like a lovely bunch of nice and inviting people. https://github.com/opal/opal/issues/941 https://github.com/opal/opal/issues/941

sdegutis 11y ago
Look, it's the guy's own personal twitter account. He can say what he wants. And he's put his own work into an open source project, voluntarily. Despite what many seem to think, there is no "universally agreed" morals and views. So if you want to oust people you disagree with, don't be surprised when others oust you. Or better yet, we'd all be better off if we all just learn to work peaceably with people we disagree with.
- spoiler 11y ago
  > Look, it's the guy's own personal twitter account. He can say what he wants. And he's put his own work into an open source project, voluntarily. He's promoting Opal on that same Twitter account, though. A parallel: It's like saying he can bully someone outside of class, and that as long as he sits nice and quiet in class, the school shouldn't do anything about it. Quite frankly, I think the Internet got to his head. > Despite what many seem to think, there is no "universally agreed" morals and views. So if you want to oust people you disagree with, don't be surprised when others oust you. True, but his statement was a soft-core version of hate speech. > Or better yet, we'd all be better off if we all just learn to work peaceably with people we disagree with. He didn't simply disagree, though. He's being outright offensive about it: "not accepting reality is the problem here," and "anyway it's months that in Italy school after school sneaks genderism lessons in without parents consent. Not cool," yes okay, let's not educate people, because that's well cool, innit blad.
  - sdegutis 11y ago
    > He's promoting Opal on that same Twitter account, though. So? It's his personal twitter account. He can do what he wants with it. He can say the Surface Book is great, or Opal is great, or Opal sucks. That doesn't make anything he says there into an official endorsement or opinion of the Opal project. > A parallel: It's like saying he can bully someone outside of class, and that as long as he sits nice and quiet in class, the school shouldn't do anything about it. The difference is that bullying is actually against rules. Expressing your views on something controversial like this is perfectly allowed due to freedom of speech. > True, but his statement was a soft-core version of hate speech. For one specific definition of hate-speech, sure. But not one that's universally agreed upon. In other words, that's like, your opinion, man.
  - ssmoot 11y ago
    Being offended is not the same as being bullied. School bullies are effective because their victims can't simply choose to not interact with them. That's not the case here. Unless you're an actual contributor and the offensive behavior crosses over. But realistically, this mob was never going to contribute anything anyways. The truth of most OSS projects (IME) is that they're driven by a handful of people at most. Sacrificing one of those over empty threats of nonexistent meaningful contributions is the wrong move 100% of the time.
sehr 11y ago
the 4chan avatar is a nice touch!
llamataboot 11y ago
To be fair to Opal, although some maintainers were extremely dismissive and one is personally transphobic, they did agree to institute a Code of Conduct for the project, which is a great step.
oldmanjay 11y ago
> Tolerance isn’t about loving everyone. It’s precisely the opposite. It’s accepting that are others out there who disgust or repel us, whom we don’t approve of or don’t agree with, but we accept their right to be that way, as long as they stay within the law. Tibor Fischer, The Hungarian Tiger
- sdegutis 11y ago
  Well, that's one definition of tolerance, I suppose.
  - oldmanjay 11y ago
    I'm well aware of the definition of tolerance that boils down to "people who share my opinions are tolerated" but I don't get what the point of it is.
    - sdegutis 11y ago
      The one I personally prefer is "don't demand people change what they're doing just because you don't agree with them." This seems like the most sane, intuitive, and universally reasonable definition of tolerance. Using this definition in the case of this Opal controversy: - the developer wasn't being intolerant because he didn't demand anything of trans people, he only expressed an opinion; - but the person who opened the issue was being intolerant by demanding the developer step down.
aikah 11y ago
This witch hunt from someone who never contributed to Opal has nothing to do with web development and maintainers responded him/her the right way. And frankly the brigading from people who never ever used github and aren't developers was so obvious the whole thing was a farce.
- spoiler 11y ago
  I agree with CoralineAda on her views, however her approach to these issues is almost always wrong (the two of us had discussion on this many times). With that being said, I wouldn't personally contribute to Opal because of Elia. The way I see these projects--if I get involved with them--is that it's like a virtual workplace, and everyone else working on it and participates in discussions or otherwise is pretty much a coworker. If anyone feels this strongly about a certain group (like Elia), they will find "devil's advocate" (for a lack of better expression) reasons to disagree with them simply because they don't like them, or otherwise try to diminish the person in various forms to deter them from contributing. The worst part is that they might not even do it on purpose or even ralise it, so they'd be innocent in their self-perception. Not to mention, that some of the other contributors who've been acquainted with him would likely go to his defence (as is the case with meh[1]). Shit like this has been happening all the time; saying that it does not would be ignorant. [1]: To a certain extent I also agree with meh, that there shouldn't be any politics/religion/general-bullshit topics within a software project, however Elia's Twitter profile managed to do exactly that. If he's going to have hate speech (call it what you want, but that is hate speech) and talk shit on his Twitter, he shouldn't promote his involvement in a respectable project, because this will happen. Elia is a shitty fucking person and he's put a stain on the project (but, hey, that's just my little, worthless opinion).
  - mikecmpbll 11y ago
    "If anyone feels this strongly about a certain group (like Elia), they will find "devil's advocate" (for a lack of better expression) reasons to disagree with them simply because they don't like them, or otherwise try to diminish the person in various forms to deter them from contributing." why on earth do you feel that you're an authority on how people _will_ behave? don't judge everyone else by your awfully low standards of professionalism, almost everyone i've ever worked with has been capable of working with people with which they have disagreements, without their differences of opinions causing issues. grow up.

sdegutis 11y ago

Look, it's the guy's own personal twitter account. He can say what he wants. And he's put his own work into an open source project, voluntarily. Despite what many seem to think, there is no "universally agreed" morals and views. So if you want to oust people you disagree with, don't be surprised when others oust you. Or better yet, we'd all be better off if we all just learn to work peaceably with people we disagree with.

spoiler 11y ago
> Look, it's the guy's own personal twitter account. He can say what he wants. And he's put his own work into an open source project, voluntarily. He's promoting Opal on that same Twitter account, though. A parallel: It's like saying he can bully someone outside of class, and that as long as he sits nice and quiet in class, the school shouldn't do anything about it. Quite frankly, I think the Internet got to his head. > Despite what many seem to think, there is no "universally agreed" morals and views. So if you want to oust people you disagree with, don't be surprised when others oust you. True, but his statement was a soft-core version of hate speech. > Or better yet, we'd all be better off if we all just learn to work peaceably with people we disagree with. He didn't simply disagree, though. He's being outright offensive about it: "not accepting reality is the problem here," and "anyway it's months that in Italy school after school sneaks genderism lessons in without parents consent. Not cool," yes okay, let's not educate people, because that's well cool, innit blad.
- sdegutis 11y ago
  > He's promoting Opal on that same Twitter account, though. So? It's his personal twitter account. He can do what he wants with it. He can say the Surface Book is great, or Opal is great, or Opal sucks. That doesn't make anything he says there into an official endorsement or opinion of the Opal project. > A parallel: It's like saying he can bully someone outside of class, and that as long as he sits nice and quiet in class, the school shouldn't do anything about it. The difference is that bullying is actually against rules. Expressing your views on something controversial like this is perfectly allowed due to freedom of speech. > True, but his statement was a soft-core version of hate speech. For one specific definition of hate-speech, sure. But not one that's universally agreed upon. In other words, that's like, your opinion, man.
- ssmoot 11y ago
  Being offended is not the same as being bullied. School bullies are effective because their victims can't simply choose to not interact with them. That's not the case here. Unless you're an actual contributor and the offensive behavior crosses over. But realistically, this mob was never going to contribute anything anyways. The truth of most OSS projects (IME) is that they're driven by a handful of people at most. Sacrificing one of those over empty threats of nonexistent meaningful contributions is the wrong move 100% of the time.

sehr 11y ago

the 4chan avatar is a nice touch!

llamataboot 11y ago

To be fair to Opal, although some maintainers were extremely dismissive and one is personally transphobic, they did agree to institute a Code of Conduct for the project, which is a great step.

oldmanjay 11y ago

> Tolerance isn’t about loving everyone. It’s precisely the opposite. It’s accepting that are others out there who disgust or repel us, whom we don’t approve of or don’t agree with, but we accept their right to be that way, as long as they stay within the law. Tibor Fischer, The Hungarian Tiger

sdegutis 11y ago
Well, that's one definition of tolerance, I suppose.
- oldmanjay 11y ago
  I'm well aware of the definition of tolerance that boils down to "people who share my opinions are tolerated" but I don't get what the point of it is.
  - sdegutis 11y ago
    The one I personally prefer is "don't demand people change what they're doing just because you don't agree with them." This seems like the most sane, intuitive, and universally reasonable definition of tolerance. Using this definition in the case of this Opal controversy: - the developer wasn't being intolerant because he didn't demand anything of trans people, he only expressed an opinion; - but the person who opened the issue was being intolerant by demanding the developer step down.

aikah 11y ago

This witch hunt from someone who never contributed to Opal has nothing to do with web development and maintainers responded him/her the right way. And frankly the brigading from people who never ever used github and aren't developers was so obvious the whole thing was a farce.

spoiler 11y ago
I agree with CoralineAda on her views, however her approach to these issues is almost always wrong (the two of us had discussion on this many times). With that being said, I wouldn't personally contribute to Opal because of Elia. The way I see these projects--if I get involved with them--is that it's like a virtual workplace, and everyone else working on it and participates in discussions or otherwise is pretty much a coworker. If anyone feels this strongly about a certain group (like Elia), they will find "devil's advocate" (for a lack of better expression) reasons to disagree with them simply because they don't like them, or otherwise try to diminish the person in various forms to deter them from contributing. The worst part is that they might not even do it on purpose or even ralise it, so they'd be innocent in their self-perception. Not to mention, that some of the other contributors who've been acquainted with him would likely go to his defence (as is the case with meh[1]). Shit like this has been happening all the time; saying that it does not would be ignorant. [1]: To a certain extent I also agree with meh, that there shouldn't be any politics/religion/general-bullshit topics within a software project, however Elia's Twitter profile managed to do exactly that. If he's going to have hate speech (call it what you want, but that is hate speech) and talk shit on his Twitter, he shouldn't promote his involvement in a respectable project, because this will happen. Elia is a shitty fucking person and he's put a stain on the project (but, hey, that's just my little, worthless opinion).
- mikecmpbll 11y ago
  "If anyone feels this strongly about a certain group (like Elia), they will find "devil's advocate" (for a lack of better expression) reasons to disagree with them simply because they don't like them, or otherwise try to diminish the person in various forms to deter them from contributing." why on earth do you feel that you're an authority on how people _will_ behave? don't judge everyone else by your awfully low standards of professionalism, almost everyone i've ever worked with has been capable of working with people with which they have disagreements, without their differences of opinions causing issues. grow up.