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>these documents are ancient history. No, they're not. They're hagiographies. They're not intended to be records of historical events, but narrative prose with

>these documents are ancient history. No, they're not. They're hagiographies. They're not intended to be records of historical events, but narrative prose with a specific audience, intended to bring them to Christ. The only exception might be Luke, who purports to recount eyewitness reports, but even he is not intent on detailing history, but imparting meaning to an existing narrative. (This is, by the way, widely accepted mainstream theology) If these are our best sources (and historians tend to agree that they are), anyone honest about history has to recognize that the historiography of Jesus' life is problematic, and the quantity of manuscript copies in circulation will not change that.

jorangreef 11y ago
What I meant was they are ancient documents and thus fall within the domain of ancient history. That is, they are not part of modern history, if that makes sense? Whether they are hagiographies or not is for you to judge. Personally, the gospels more often than not present their subjects in a difficult light. For example, the Messiah (King) is to be crucified. This would have been anathema and foolishness to most Jews and Greeks of the day. One does not consider a document to be historical merely because it claims to be, or exclude a document merely because it fails to do so (as you require of the gospels other than Luke). Any and all documents available should be considered and weighed appropriately. And in fact, incidental evidence should be given all the more weight.
- cholantesh 11y ago
  Yes, that does make sense. Sorry I misunderstood. I'm not doing the judging; academics are. The word I used may be imprecise or even anachronistic, but the thrust is the same, and validated by academic judgement of the texts. Genre criticism is an aspect of theology, and it crosses over with historiography. In the evaluation of practitioners in both disciplines, these are works that are not intended as historical accounts. While, as you say, this does not invalidate them as historical sources, it doesn't mean that every event recounted and every argument made therein is one that can be considered a valid historical occurrence. Many of them aren't even approachable by the historical method.

jorangreef 11y ago

What I meant was they are ancient documents and thus fall within the domain of ancient history. That is, they are not part of modern history, if that makes sense? Whether they are hagiographies or not is for you to judge. Personally, the gospels more often than not present their subjects in a difficult light. For example, the Messiah (King) is to be crucified. This would have been anathema and foolishness to most Jews and Greeks of the day. One does not consider a document to be historical merely because it claims to be, or exclude a document merely because it fails to do so (as you require of the gospels other than Luke). Any and all documents available should be considered and weighed appropriately. And in fact, incidental evidence should be given all the more weight.

cholantesh 11y ago
Yes, that does make sense. Sorry I misunderstood. I'm not doing the judging; academics are. The word I used may be imprecise or even anachronistic, but the thrust is the same, and validated by academic judgement of the texts. Genre criticism is an aspect of theology, and it crosses over with historiography. In the evaluation of practitioners in both disciplines, these are works that are not intended as historical accounts. While, as you say, this does not invalidate them as historical sources, it doesn't mean that every event recounted and every argument made therein is one that can be considered a valid historical occurrence. Many of them aren't even approachable by the historical method.