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They... should be offended? Because it was a bad idea that ruins the Linux Kernel. Kernel development isn't for everyone.
by x1024 11y ago
They... should be offended? Because it was a bad idea that ruins the Linux Kernel. Kernel development isn't for everyone.
- tptacek 11y agoCan you (the person who wrote that this code would "ruin" the Linux kernel) explain in as much detail as you can how it would have ruined the Linux kernel? I'm curious about how much people take what Linus says at face value.
- x1024 11y agoCode being safe or unsafe is a pretty objective metric of quality, methinks.
- tptacek 11y agoI agree. Can you explain how this particular code is "safe" or "unsafe"? Again: I'm curious as to how much of what Linus says is taken at face value on HN. I'm even more interested now, because the fulcrum of Linus's argument isn't safety.
- x1024 11y agoYou are committing a logical fallacy. I'm not "the voice of HN", nor am I a representative sample of "what HN thinks". This is just my opinion. Using a builtin operation ("addition and comparison of integers") is always safer than using a function that may or may not work the same everywhere. I.e. a nonstandard function. Also, the proposed code has more levels of indirection, therefore places a higher cognitive load on the reader. These things tend to result in bugs down the road. And it is also true that "an overflow could still happen", which is mentioned in Linus' critique. All of these are objective ways to measure how "safe" the code is.
- tptacek 11y agoNo, that's not what Linus is saying. It's close to the opposite of what he's saying (overflow_usub wraps a builtin). You obviously can't simply use the builtin addition and subtraction of unsigned integers in safe code, because in modern C, integers wrap. Returning to the thread: why are you so comfortable extrapolating from Linus's rant to "this code would ruin the Linux kernel"? You don't grok the code he's talking about. Is it because "if Linus is arguing against this code with this much ferocity, the code must be really bad?" Because if that's it, you're starting to see the issue some people have with the tone he uses.
- x1024 11y agoIn the discussion Linus is providing his suggested code, which is literally "just a builtin addition", but your opinion is that "He says that you can't use builtin addition". OK, sure.
- tptacek 11y agoThat is not in fact what Linus is saying. At this point you might want to take my word for it.
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- Cyph0n 11y agoI was referring to OP's general opinion.
- ceejayoz 11y ago> Because it was a bad idea that ruins the Linux Kernel. That seems a bit hyperbolic. > Kernel development isn't for everyone. Very little is "for everyone". That's not an excuse to offer criticism in a nasty manner. The article links to a nicer response that's a) shorter and b) a lot more likely to educate and build up a better contributor.
- cholantesh 11y agoI'd go even further - kernel development isn't just 'not for everyone', it's for very few. Relatively speaking, how many people are competent enough to contribute to the kernel? Those that even make the attempt are doing so voluntarily - if the reward from that is to be entreated with a hyperbolic rant, why would they bother going any further?
- tptacek 11y agoYou all realize that this argument cuts both ways, and probably even cuts against Linus harder, right? By the time Linus is ranting at someone at LKML, the person he's ranting at has --- statistically, at least --- already qualified themselves as especially competent. These people aren't arguing over Rails template languages. I'm coming to realize that the sociology of Linus LKML rants is pretty fascinating.