5 ms·

To really solve the social problems, the sale needs to be legalised. Making the sale a criminal offence puts money into the hands of organized crime, drives up

by hoodoof 11y ago

To really solve the social problems, the sale needs to be legalised. Making the sale a criminal offence puts money into the hands of organized crime, drives up the prices, forces addicts to steal to buy their drugs and leads drug users to take "worse" drugs like methamphetamine because "better" drugs aren't easily available. Drugs need to be made legally to ensure quality, to remove harmful impurities, to ensure the dosage is consistent and predictable which reduces risk of overdose, and especially to ensure that when a person consumes "drug A", they do not in fact get a dose of the more addictive/harmful "drug B" (i.e. methamphetamine). Governments stand to make tax dollars off marijuana too. There's a trail of logic that must be followed - if it is OK to buy and consume drugs, why is it not OK to sell them? The only caveat is that methamphetamine should remain illegal to buy or use. The idea being that people will use "less harmful" drugs than methamphetamine because they are available cheap, easy and clean. The strongest possible justification for legalization of sale and use of drugs is to minimize usage and supply of the greatest of all evils - methamphetamine. We need to accept that people want to get high. You can't arrest that human desire out of existence. We can however remove the harmful effects of criminalization of the sale of drugs. Criminalization fills prisons, wastes police and legal resources, destroys families, prevents people having functional lives and creates both organized crime and petty crime. N.B. personally I'm not interested taking in any drugs except alcohol and caffeine so I'm not angling to be able to get high. I wouldn't take em even if they were legal and free.

avree 11y ago
Why do you think meth is worse than heroin?
- hoodoof 11y ago
  Meth junkies go on violent psychotic rampages killing and injuring other people and have no other thought in their brains except to get more meth. When I read in the newspaper about someone murdering their family I expect, and often find either a statement or suggestion that the perpetrator was using meth. Heroin junkies go to sleep and are making a poor health choice but it is possible with clean heroin to lead a functional life including work and family. Drugs that harm the user are "better" (as such) whereas drugs that result in harm to others are "worse".
  - MichaelGG 11y ago
    Apparently the FDA/DEA disagree, as methamphetamine is legal in the US and doctors can prescribe it for attention issues or obesity. Sales are somewhere above $10M a year. (This is just for methamphetamine. Other amphetamines like Adderall sell like 100x more.) Whereas diamorphine, aka Bayer Heroin(TM)[1], is deemed to have zero medicinal qualities. The DEA is almost certainly wrong (as usual), though if amphetamines were easily obtainable at good prices, the market for meth would likely crash. And you're right that real opiates (to contrast with dirt mixed with fentanyl and sold as "heroin") seem to have little negative effects. Most of the damage is due to the legality and financing issues, which are entirely artificial. (Opiates are incredibly cheap to produce.) 1: Trademark stolen as part of WWI "reparations".
  - werber 11y ago
    Meth and Heroin addicts tend to be poorer and prone to criminal activity, than pharmaceutical amphetamine and opiate users. Additionally, adverse reactions, are more likely when the drug is unregulated.
    - blumkvist 11y ago
      Do you know how much 1g of heroin cost?
      - werber 11y ago
        It's been a while since I knew people who did heroin, but the people I knew who did it bought it in packs and bundles not grams. One dose (pack) was ~10$ and a bundle which, I think was, 12 doses was ~100$. And if memory serves me correctly Oxycontin was like ~30$ a pill. Too many of the people I used to know died from it, and I frequently think about how things could have been different for the people who overdosed and the people around them were afraid to call for help because it would have put them in criminal jeopardy.
  - bcook 11y ago
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_harmfulness https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_harmfulness Notice that heroin is the worst, both personally and socially. This is well established. Also, I would not use popular media as the basis for any sound argument. :( Herion junkies lead a functional life including work and family? Seriously, what the fuck?! Cite just one source that heroin addiction is controllable because the addict uses "clean" heroin. Heroin addiction is the problem, not the adulterants, so purity is unimportant. Wow. :( Edit: This is the first time I wished I could downvote. lol. "Clean" heroin...
- ryanlol 11y ago
  Heroin related problems are rarely caused by the substance itself, rather lack thereof.
InclinedPlane 11y ago
It doesn't matter if using meth will 100% guarantee that someone's life is ruined, people still need to have that freedom. Because denying it actually leads to worse outcomes, and worse negative externalities.
- hoodoof 11y ago
  The distinction is whether or not the user harms other people when stoned. Meth addicts become psychotically violent.
cthalupa 11y ago
>The only caveat is that methamphetamine should remain illegal to buy or use. The idea being that people will use "less harmful" drugs than methamphetamine because they are available cheap, easy and clean. The strongest possible justification for legalization of sale and use of drugs is to minimize usage and supply of the greatest of all evils - methamphetamine. You seem to have an oddly demonized view of methamphetamine. The reaction on people is fairly similar to dextroamphetamine, which you probably know of by the name of 'Adderall', and we prescribe it frequently. Meth is mildly neurotoxic and adderall is not, so it's definitely worse for you, but we let people do plenty of things that are bad for them. Not that I'm suggesting anyone go out and develop a meth habit, but if you're arguing in favor or legalizing everything but meth you're already arguing in favor of quite a few things that can cause personal damage. The violence surrounding meth is much the same as the violence surrounding most other illegal substances - driven by the actions taken to procure funding of the substance or procuring the substance itself.
- hoodoof 11y ago
  I'm not sure I understand your point. Are you saying meth is "not that bad"? If so then you and I must be reading different newspapers and watching different TV channels.
  - gfsn54nsf 11y ago
    I think his point is that (a) it's hard to say meth is that much worse than other hard drugs like heroin or crack, and (b) over-the-counter meth that's of a guaranteed potency and without adulterants might not be as harmful to the user as the bluish, vinegar-smelling stuff your second cousin Skeeter cooks up.
  - steve1011 11y ago
    thats exactly what he is saying. Relative to some illegal substances, meth is not worse or somehow more heinous. Part of the problem when many talk about the legalization of drugs is the inherited biases one acquires from paying attention or taking at face value what sources like the media or government say about these substances. The problem isn't that certain substances are much worse than others, it's the fact that these substances (harmful or otherwise) are relegated to the black market.

by hoodoof 11y ago

avree 11y ago

Why do you think meth is worse than heroin?

hoodoof 11y ago
Meth junkies go on violent psychotic rampages killing and injuring other people and have no other thought in their brains except to get more meth. When I read in the newspaper about someone murdering their family I expect, and often find either a statement or suggestion that the perpetrator was using meth. Heroin junkies go to sleep and are making a poor health choice but it is possible with clean heroin to lead a functional life including work and family. Drugs that harm the user are "better" (as such) whereas drugs that result in harm to others are "worse".
- MichaelGG 11y ago
  Apparently the FDA/DEA disagree, as methamphetamine is legal in the US and doctors can prescribe it for attention issues or obesity. Sales are somewhere above $10M a year. (This is just for methamphetamine. Other amphetamines like Adderall sell like 100x more.) Whereas diamorphine, aka Bayer Heroin(TM)[1], is deemed to have zero medicinal qualities. The DEA is almost certainly wrong (as usual), though if amphetamines were easily obtainable at good prices, the market for meth would likely crash. And you're right that real opiates (to contrast with dirt mixed with fentanyl and sold as "heroin") seem to have little negative effects. Most of the damage is due to the legality and financing issues, which are entirely artificial. (Opiates are incredibly cheap to produce.) 1: Trademark stolen as part of WWI "reparations".
- werber 11y ago
  Meth and Heroin addicts tend to be poorer and prone to criminal activity, than pharmaceutical amphetamine and opiate users. Additionally, adverse reactions, are more likely when the drug is unregulated.
  - blumkvist 11y ago
    Do you know how much 1g of heroin cost?
    - werber 11y ago
      It's been a while since I knew people who did heroin, but the people I knew who did it bought it in packs and bundles not grams. One dose (pack) was ~10$ and a bundle which, I think was, 12 doses was ~100$. And if memory serves me correctly Oxycontin was like ~30$ a pill. Too many of the people I used to know died from it, and I frequently think about how things could have been different for the people who overdosed and the people around them were afraid to call for help because it would have put them in criminal jeopardy.
- bcook 11y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_harmfulness https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_harmfulness Notice that heroin is the worst, both personally and socially. This is well established. Also, I would not use popular media as the basis for any sound argument. :( Herion junkies lead a functional life including work and family? Seriously, what the fuck?! Cite just one source that heroin addiction is controllable because the addict uses "clean" heroin. Heroin addiction is the problem, not the adulterants, so purity is unimportant. Wow. :( Edit: This is the first time I wished I could downvote. lol. "Clean" heroin...
ryanlol 11y ago
Heroin related problems are rarely caused by the substance itself, rather lack thereof.

InclinedPlane 11y ago

It doesn't matter if using meth will 100% guarantee that someone's life is ruined, people still need to have that freedom. Because denying it actually leads to worse outcomes, and worse negative externalities.

hoodoof 11y ago
The distinction is whether or not the user harms other people when stoned. Meth addicts become psychotically violent.

cthalupa 11y ago

>The only caveat is that methamphetamine should remain illegal to buy or use. The idea being that people will use "less harmful" drugs than methamphetamine because they are available cheap, easy and clean. The strongest possible justification for legalization of sale and use of drugs is to minimize usage and supply of the greatest of all evils - methamphetamine. You seem to have an oddly demonized view of methamphetamine. The reaction on people is fairly similar to dextroamphetamine, which you probably know of by the name of 'Adderall', and we prescribe it frequently. Meth is mildly neurotoxic and adderall is not, so it's definitely worse for you, but we let people do plenty of things that are bad for them. Not that I'm suggesting anyone go out and develop a meth habit, but if you're arguing in favor or legalizing everything but meth you're already arguing in favor of quite a few things that can cause personal damage. The violence surrounding meth is much the same as the violence surrounding most other illegal substances - driven by the actions taken to procure funding of the substance or procuring the substance itself.

hoodoof 11y ago
I'm not sure I understand your point. Are you saying meth is "not that bad"? If so then you and I must be reading different newspapers and watching different TV channels.
- gfsn54nsf 11y ago
  I think his point is that (a) it's hard to say meth is that much worse than other hard drugs like heroin or crack, and (b) over-the-counter meth that's of a guaranteed potency and without adulterants might not be as harmful to the user as the bluish, vinegar-smelling stuff your second cousin Skeeter cooks up.
- steve1011 11y ago
  thats exactly what he is saying. Relative to some illegal substances, meth is not worse or somehow more heinous. Part of the problem when many talk about the legalization of drugs is the inherited biases one acquires from paying attention or taking at face value what sources like the media or government say about these substances. The problem isn't that certain substances are much worse than others, it's the fact that these substances (harmful or otherwise) are relegated to the black market.