4 ms·

> Christianity does not explicitly regard homosexuality as sinful or detestable. What do you mean by 'Christianity' in this context? Some denominations conside

by olavk 11y ago

> Christianity does not explicitly regard homosexuality as sinful or detestable. What do you mean by 'Christianity' in this context? Some denominations consider homosexuality sinful and detestable and some does not. Are you going to argue that the ones you disagree with are not 'True Christians'?

dvt 11y ago
I think any group of people that fuels hatred and vitriol by definition can't be Christian. The KKK, for example, have traditionally been a "Christian" group. Do I consider them to be Christian? Absolutely not. Do you? I invite you to draw the lines wherever you want.
- cbd1984 11y ago
  Any group that says it's Christian is Christian. Otherwise, we have one group of True Christians dictating to everyone what their faith must consist of. We Americans fought a revolution in order to found a country where that could not happen. Do you think it should be allowed to happen?
  - dvt 11y ago
    Sure, that sounds good. It doesn't really matter how you draw the lines in the sand. My original point still stands.
- olavk 11y ago
  The bottom line is that a scripture which states that homosexuals shall be killed and you are allowed to beat your slaves to death, is a bad moral compass. Of course many groups have found ways to interpret this scripture in more benign ways, but the scripture itself is pretty hateful. Sure you can always cherry pick the things you like and discard the rest, but then you are using another moral compass to direct the picking. E.g if you discard the OT then you also discard the ten commandments. But people tend to think it is still wrong to murder and steal, so then end up picking some of the rules in the OT but ignoring others. "Love your neighbor" is from the OT also, btw.
  - dvt 11y ago
    You're decontextualizing the OT "love thy neighbor" which is from Leviticus and is in the context of the Jewish culture (at least quote the whole sentence). The NT "love thy neighbor" is fundamentally different. I'd get into more detail, but without the theological background, you simply won't get it. If you look only at Jesus' teachings (and the New Testament more generally), it's logically absurd to come to your conclusion that the Scripture is hateful. But hey, keep quoting ancient Jewish law that made it into Biblical canon.
    - olavk 11y ago
      NT Jesus states that the "ancient Jewish law" remains valid forever, so if you are going to disregard OT laws, you also have to cherry pick and disregard Jesus quotes you find inconvenient.
      - dvt 11y ago
        It's funny because he says the complete opposite. The whole idea of the new covenant is that Jesus replaces the Jewish Temple of the Old Testament. Read Mark 12, where Jesus basically avoids a loaded question by the Pharisees dealing with exactly what you're bringing up (old vs. new law). Again, I don't mean to be rude, but it doesn't seem you have the theological background to have this debate.
        olavk 11y ago
        Matthew 5:18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew+5&version=NIV https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew+5&versi...
        dvt 11y ago
        So to prove your point, you pick a hotly-debated verse that has had literally thousands of years of argumentation behind it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_5:17 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_5:17 Trivializing its exegesis (and hermeneutic) doesn't do anyone any good, least of all your point. And you ignore the social and historical contexts: Jesus was speaking to Jews and probably didn't want to alienate them so his wording may have been political. Not to mention that Acts 15 explicitly addresses your point: it's very clear that Gentile Christians do NOT have to abide by Jewish (Mosaic) Law: > Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.” (.. and a few verses down ..) > Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

by olavk 11y ago

dvt 11y ago

I think any group of people that fuels hatred and vitriol by definition can't be Christian. The KKK, for example, have traditionally been a "Christian" group. Do I consider them to be Christian? Absolutely not. Do you? I invite you to draw the lines wherever you want.

cbd1984 11y ago
Any group that says it's Christian is Christian. Otherwise, we have one group of True Christians dictating to everyone what their faith must consist of. We Americans fought a revolution in order to found a country where that could not happen. Do you think it should be allowed to happen?
- dvt 11y ago
  Sure, that sounds good. It doesn't really matter how you draw the lines in the sand. My original point still stands.
olavk 11y ago
The bottom line is that a scripture which states that homosexuals shall be killed and you are allowed to beat your slaves to death, is a bad moral compass. Of course many groups have found ways to interpret this scripture in more benign ways, but the scripture itself is pretty hateful. Sure you can always cherry pick the things you like and discard the rest, but then you are using another moral compass to direct the picking. E.g if you discard the OT then you also discard the ten commandments. But people tend to think it is still wrong to murder and steal, so then end up picking some of the rules in the OT but ignoring others. "Love your neighbor" is from the OT also, btw.
- dvt 11y ago
  You're decontextualizing the OT "love thy neighbor" which is from Leviticus and is in the context of the Jewish culture (at least quote the whole sentence). The NT "love thy neighbor" is fundamentally different. I'd get into more detail, but without the theological background, you simply won't get it. If you look only at Jesus' teachings (and the New Testament more generally), it's logically absurd to come to your conclusion that the Scripture is hateful. But hey, keep quoting ancient Jewish law that made it into Biblical canon.
  - olavk 11y ago
    NT Jesus states that the "ancient Jewish law" remains valid forever, so if you are going to disregard OT laws, you also have to cherry pick and disregard Jesus quotes you find inconvenient.
    - dvt 11y ago
      It's funny because he says the complete opposite. The whole idea of the new covenant is that Jesus replaces the Jewish Temple of the Old Testament. Read Mark 12, where Jesus basically avoids a loaded question by the Pharisees dealing with exactly what you're bringing up (old vs. new law). Again, I don't mean to be rude, but it doesn't seem you have the theological background to have this debate.
      - olavk 11y ago
        Matthew 5:18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew+5&version=NIV https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew+5&versi...
        dvt 11y ago
        So to prove your point, you pick a hotly-debated verse that has had literally thousands of years of argumentation behind it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_5:17 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_5:17 Trivializing its exegesis (and hermeneutic) doesn't do anyone any good, least of all your point. And you ignore the social and historical contexts: Jesus was speaking to Jews and probably didn't want to alienate them so his wording may have been political. Not to mention that Acts 15 explicitly addresses your point: it's very clear that Gentile Christians do NOT have to abide by Jewish (Mosaic) Law: > Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.” (.. and a few verses down ..) > Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”