8 ms·

Ignoring the quality of the article, I am struck by one thing. Why has Ireland all of a sudden taken such a progressive shift? First national recognition of ga

Ignoring the quality of the article, I am struck by one thing. Why has Ireland all of a sudden taken such a progressive shift? First national recognition of gay marriage, now this? I'm loving it, wherever it came from.

jug5 11y ago
I came here to say this. This is a huge departure from the status quo in Ireland, very surprised to see this.
- borvo 11y ago
  There's nothing new here, Ireland has been changing at a very rapid pace for the last 20 years - becoming progressively more liberal due to many influences, not least the fact that all of a sudden most young people were staying in the country during the celtic tiger years.
anigbrowl 11y ago
Irish guy here (although I live in California now). Demographics, mass abandonment of the Catholic church in recent years (not least due to sex scandals, and the bruising effects of the global financial crisis, which has led to a more pragmatic assessment of priorities. I'm very happy about it too. While I'm not in any rush to head home to the inclement Irish weather it feels like a great validation to see this tide of social liberalization. I was born in 1970 and grew up in a country where divorce was illegal, corporal punishment in schools was legal (and liberally dispensed), and drug use was presented as a moral/class failing. Growing up in a violent household in a country where family life was reified, I fled to the UK as soon as I was old enough to leave home and have rarely been back since. Maybe I should start planning a holiday.
- patrickk 11y ago
  Another Irish expat, living in Germany. The cynic in me says the timing of the gay marriage, the abortion referendum on abortion and now this progressive drug stance is the government playing a game of misdirection with the electorate. This current government was elected on the specific promise of fixing the economic mess and getting rid of the disastrous policy of bank debt being hoisted onto the sovereign balance sheet. I know plenty of people who are struggling financially, losing their homes and so on back in Ireland, but by using controversial social measures (which I agree are a step in the right direction) they are distracting from their pathetic failure to fix the economy (any progress you see economically has nothing to do with the government, but a recovery of the global economy and the multinationals in Ireland along with it. We have very little indigenous industry, startups, etc.)
  - anonymousDan 11y ago
    Oh come on, Ireland has been the fastest growing country in Europe for the last few years. This government has done a pretty good job considering the circumstances. Would you rather they had gone the Greek route for example?
    - patrickk 11y ago
      With all due respect, you have no idea what you are talking about. The headline figures for Ireland are very misleading. The bond spreads are coming down because Irish banks were bailed out at enormous expense and are buying Irish govt debt. Meanwhile hundreds of thousands have left the place for good due to a lack of opportunity. Many ordinary people are still struggling badly. Ireland and Greece are nothing alike, we never went on a spending spree like Greece did, it was all the dirty dealings with the bank bailout that made the recession so long lasting.
      - anonymousDan 11y ago
        Nah. We were already screwed when this government got in because of the last one. To lay the blame at their door is ridiculous. They did a good job with the hand they were dealt IMHO (particularly Noonan). Furthermore the bond spreads aren't "coming down", they've been next to nothing for a while. Unemployment is still too high but a lot better than it was.
roymurdock 11y ago
A very random and uninformed guess - A lot of tech companies have opened up offices in Ireland (ostensibly due to tax laws) and have started to attract young, progressive talent into the country. This investment has helped the economy and raised the standard of living in Ireland, so less people are concerned with enforcing conservative/religion-based regulation. This article has some better stats/anecdotes: http://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2014/12/08/368770530/u-s-tech-firms-see-green-as-they-set-up-shop-in-low-tax-ireland http://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2014/12/08/368770530/u...
- comrh 11y ago
  I don't know if you can give the credit to tech companies, but Ireland is keeping more of it young people in the country after a decade of emmigration and brain drain. Their more progressive attitudes probably have something to do with it.
- lucideer 11y ago
  I'd really love if this were the case, but sadly it really isn't. The affect of US tech companies coming here has largely been a small-scale version of Palo Alto-esque gentrification of a small area of Dublin (docklands) and any improvements in standard of living being limited to a small white male tech elite. Overall poverty is up (we're dealing with a very serious recent homelessness crisis) and average standards of living have dropped significantly in the country otherwise and reported economic improvements in world news are typical of our conservative government's focus on primarily export-based GDP figures, etc. over actual progressive population-based data. I think on the other hand, politics aside, there is a definite strong movement away from the church at least, which I think is largely a lingering result of the various very public abuse scandals over the past few decades. Edit: That NPR article is interesting in its focus on Cork. I live in Dublin, so I can't really comment much anecdotally on Cork, but with the exception of Apple, almost all major US tech firms that have HQ-ed here (Google, Facebook, MS, Twitter, etc.) are Dublin-based, so it seems an unusual focus in that regard.
  - roymurdock 11y ago
    Thanks for the inside perspective - hard to get a real sense of how a country is doing from GDP/economic indicators. Wishful thinking on my part that tech wealth would trickle down more effectively in Ireland than in the US. On the homelessness crisis: Amazing that housing prices in Dublin have jumped up 22.3% YoY. [1] What else do you see contributing to the rise in poverty/homelessness and the decline in living standards in Ireland? [1] http://www.globalpropertyguide.com/Europe/Ireland/Price-History http://www.globalpropertyguide.com/Europe/Ireland/Price-Hist...
lucideer 11y ago
Not to take away from either positive story - both are really fantastic - but I think they're both isolated events, with slightly different causes, and sadly don't really represent a paradigm shift. The national recognition of gay marriage was a worldwide story largely because it was a popular vote. Other - perhaps more generally progressive - countries had already legislated for it without needing that public vote. We only needed it because our actual constitution is so outdated and regressive to begin with. The drug decriminalisation is more surprising, and rather than being something representative of the current government (who are otherwise extremely conservative), it seems more to be the work of a single relatively maverick government minister. However, while he seems genuine in his attempt, there's a general election in the new year so it's likely a pre-election promise and not something that there's intent to deliver on in this term.
- secfirstmd 11y ago
  "extremely conservative"? I would have to challenge that. Certainly on a global scale (versus US, UK, EU etc), the current government is not that extreme.
gearoidoc 11y ago
Irishman here - living in Canada nearly two years now. It's not very sudden to be honest - changes like the Marriage Equality Act have been wanted by a lot of people for a long time. The criminalisation of drug use clearly doesnt work the entire world over. In Ireland, especially Dublin, it's not unusual to see a heroin addict shooting up on public transport. I honestly feel that Irish people are in general a fairly liberal bunch. It can't be emphasised enough how much the Catholic Church held the country back. I don't think non-Irish people will understand just how high esteem (read: fear) that we held the institution in. All we need now is to remove religion (not necessarily the teachings but rather the role the Church plays) from the eductation system and we'll really be getting somewhere.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
arcadeparade 11y ago
God is dead, paedophile priests, neighbouring cultural hegemons and cheap credit have killed him.
madaxe_again 11y ago
It's a nice idea, but I can see the UK leaning on them, hard, not to do this. I can see the arguments now: - People will get the ferry to Ireland and bring them to the UK! - Drug tourism! Amsterdam! Everybody hates Amsterdam! Look at how terrible everything is there! - Think of the children!! - It's not aligned with the UK's policy of increasing criminalisation! - Think of what you'll do to your prison sector! Hopefully Ireland will give their former (hell, ongoing) occupiers the finger should they dare raise a stink.
- peteretep 11y ago
  > I can see the UK leaning on them > Hopefully Ireland will give their former (hell, > ongoing) occupiers the finger I think you vastly over-estimate the importance of Ireland to the British government.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - madaxe_again 11y ago
    I take it you missed the bit where they fought a few dozen wars over the last century?
    - peteretep 11y ago
      Oh, Imperial Britain had a war with Ireland? That must make Ireland special! http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/9653497/British-have-invaded-nine-out-of-ten-countries-so-look-out-Luxembourg.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/9653497/British-have-inva...
- greggarious 11y ago
  Can you elaborate on how Amsterdam is terrible? I recently spent a week day. (Partly on vacation, partly on business.) I saw a country with great public transport, decent food, a vibrant arts scene, and while yes, the smell of weed was everywhere, people seemed way more laid back. No roving bands of drunk frat bros, no meth tweakers, and police who viewed their job as to increase the enjoyment of all citizens and visitors, rather than generate revenue for the township through fines. If that's hell, well, call me a Satanist because I'm sold.
fuddle 11y ago
The Irish were one of the first to ban smoking in pubs too.
vixen99 11y ago
The word 'progressive' has been hijacked and used to suggest the existence of valid arguments prior to their serious examination. Time we junked it. Of course the same game can be played by pointing out that progressive diseases inevitably lead to a fatal outcome.
- lorenzhs 11y ago
  No, it has not been hijacked - it has two meanings. See, for example, https://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/learner/progressive https://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/learner/progre... or consult your favourite dictionary.

jug5 11y ago

I came here to say this. This is a huge departure from the status quo in Ireland, very surprised to see this.

borvo 11y ago
There's nothing new here, Ireland has been changing at a very rapid pace for the last 20 years - becoming progressively more liberal due to many influences, not least the fact that all of a sudden most young people were staying in the country during the celtic tiger years.

anigbrowl 11y ago

Irish guy here (although I live in California now). Demographics, mass abandonment of the Catholic church in recent years (not least due to sex scandals, and the bruising effects of the global financial crisis, which has led to a more pragmatic assessment of priorities. I'm very happy about it too. While I'm not in any rush to head home to the inclement Irish weather it feels like a great validation to see this tide of social liberalization. I was born in 1970 and grew up in a country where divorce was illegal, corporal punishment in schools was legal (and liberally dispensed), and drug use was presented as a moral/class failing. Growing up in a violent household in a country where family life was reified, I fled to the UK as soon as I was old enough to leave home and have rarely been back since. Maybe I should start planning a holiday.

patrickk 11y ago
Another Irish expat, living in Germany. The cynic in me says the timing of the gay marriage, the abortion referendum on abortion and now this progressive drug stance is the government playing a game of misdirection with the electorate. This current government was elected on the specific promise of fixing the economic mess and getting rid of the disastrous policy of bank debt being hoisted onto the sovereign balance sheet. I know plenty of people who are struggling financially, losing their homes and so on back in Ireland, but by using controversial social measures (which I agree are a step in the right direction) they are distracting from their pathetic failure to fix the economy (any progress you see economically has nothing to do with the government, but a recovery of the global economy and the multinationals in Ireland along with it. We have very little indigenous industry, startups, etc.)
- anonymousDan 11y ago
  Oh come on, Ireland has been the fastest growing country in Europe for the last few years. This government has done a pretty good job considering the circumstances. Would you rather they had gone the Greek route for example?
  - patrickk 11y ago
    With all due respect, you have no idea what you are talking about. The headline figures for Ireland are very misleading. The bond spreads are coming down because Irish banks were bailed out at enormous expense and are buying Irish govt debt. Meanwhile hundreds of thousands have left the place for good due to a lack of opportunity. Many ordinary people are still struggling badly. Ireland and Greece are nothing alike, we never went on a spending spree like Greece did, it was all the dirty dealings with the bank bailout that made the recession so long lasting.
    - anonymousDan 11y ago
      Nah. We were already screwed when this government got in because of the last one. To lay the blame at their door is ridiculous. They did a good job with the hand they were dealt IMHO (particularly Noonan). Furthermore the bond spreads aren't "coming down", they've been next to nothing for a while. Unemployment is still too high but a lot better than it was.

roymurdock 11y ago

A very random and uninformed guess - A lot of tech companies have opened up offices in Ireland (ostensibly due to tax laws) and have started to attract young, progressive talent into the country. This investment has helped the economy and raised the standard of living in Ireland, so less people are concerned with enforcing conservative/religion-based regulation. This article has some better stats/anecdotes: http://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2014/12/08/368770530/u-s-tech-firms-see-green-as-they-set-up-shop-in-low-tax-ireland http://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2014/12/08/368770530/u...

comrh 11y ago
I don't know if you can give the credit to tech companies, but Ireland is keeping more of it young people in the country after a decade of emmigration and brain drain. Their more progressive attitudes probably have something to do with it.
lucideer 11y ago
I'd really love if this were the case, but sadly it really isn't. The affect of US tech companies coming here has largely been a small-scale version of Palo Alto-esque gentrification of a small area of Dublin (docklands) and any improvements in standard of living being limited to a small white male tech elite. Overall poverty is up (we're dealing with a very serious recent homelessness crisis) and average standards of living have dropped significantly in the country otherwise and reported economic improvements in world news are typical of our conservative government's focus on primarily export-based GDP figures, etc. over actual progressive population-based data. I think on the other hand, politics aside, there is a definite strong movement away from the church at least, which I think is largely a lingering result of the various very public abuse scandals over the past few decades. Edit: That NPR article is interesting in its focus on Cork. I live in Dublin, so I can't really comment much anecdotally on Cork, but with the exception of Apple, almost all major US tech firms that have HQ-ed here (Google, Facebook, MS, Twitter, etc.) are Dublin-based, so it seems an unusual focus in that regard.
- roymurdock 11y ago
  Thanks for the inside perspective - hard to get a real sense of how a country is doing from GDP/economic indicators. Wishful thinking on my part that tech wealth would trickle down more effectively in Ireland than in the US. On the homelessness crisis: Amazing that housing prices in Dublin have jumped up 22.3% YoY. [1] What else do you see contributing to the rise in poverty/homelessness and the decline in living standards in Ireland? [1] http://www.globalpropertyguide.com/Europe/Ireland/Price-History http://www.globalpropertyguide.com/Europe/Ireland/Price-Hist...

lucideer 11y ago

Not to take away from either positive story - both are really fantastic - but I think they're both isolated events, with slightly different causes, and sadly don't really represent a paradigm shift. The national recognition of gay marriage was a worldwide story largely because it was a popular vote. Other - perhaps more generally progressive - countries had already legislated for it without needing that public vote. We only needed it because our actual constitution is so outdated and regressive to begin with. The drug decriminalisation is more surprising, and rather than being something representative of the current government (who are otherwise extremely conservative), it seems more to be the work of a single relatively maverick government minister. However, while he seems genuine in his attempt, there's a general election in the new year so it's likely a pre-election promise and not something that there's intent to deliver on in this term.

secfirstmd 11y ago
"extremely conservative"? I would have to challenge that. Certainly on a global scale (versus US, UK, EU etc), the current government is not that extreme.

gearoidoc 11y ago

Irishman here - living in Canada nearly two years now. It's not very sudden to be honest - changes like the Marriage Equality Act have been wanted by a lot of people for a long time. The criminalisation of drug use clearly doesnt work the entire world over. In Ireland, especially Dublin, it's not unusual to see a heroin addict shooting up on public transport. I honestly feel that Irish people are in general a fairly liberal bunch. It can't be emphasised enough how much the Catholic Church held the country back. I don't think non-Irish people will understand just how high esteem (read: fear) that we held the institution in. All we need now is to remove religion (not necessarily the teachings but rather the role the Church plays) from the eductation system and we'll really be getting somewhere.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

arcadeparade 11y ago

God is dead, paedophile priests, neighbouring cultural hegemons and cheap credit have killed him.

madaxe_again 11y ago

It's a nice idea, but I can see the UK leaning on them, hard, not to do this. I can see the arguments now: - People will get the ferry to Ireland and bring them to the UK! - Drug tourism! Amsterdam! Everybody hates Amsterdam! Look at how terrible everything is there! - Think of the children!! - It's not aligned with the UK's policy of increasing criminalisation! - Think of what you'll do to your prison sector! Hopefully Ireland will give their former (hell, ongoing) occupiers the finger should they dare raise a stink.

peteretep 11y ago
> I can see the UK leaning on them > Hopefully Ireland will give their former (hell, > ongoing) occupiers the finger I think you vastly over-estimate the importance of Ireland to the British government.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- madaxe_again 11y ago
  I take it you missed the bit where they fought a few dozen wars over the last century?
  - peteretep 11y ago
    Oh, Imperial Britain had a war with Ireland? That must make Ireland special! http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/9653497/British-have-invaded-nine-out-of-ten-countries-so-look-out-Luxembourg.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/9653497/British-have-inva...
greggarious 11y ago
Can you elaborate on how Amsterdam is terrible? I recently spent a week day. (Partly on vacation, partly on business.) I saw a country with great public transport, decent food, a vibrant arts scene, and while yes, the smell of weed was everywhere, people seemed way more laid back. No roving bands of drunk frat bros, no meth tweakers, and police who viewed their job as to increase the enjoyment of all citizens and visitors, rather than generate revenue for the township through fines. If that's hell, well, call me a Satanist because I'm sold.

fuddle 11y ago

The Irish were one of the first to ban smoking in pubs too.

vixen99 11y ago

The word 'progressive' has been hijacked and used to suggest the existence of valid arguments prior to their serious examination. Time we junked it. Of course the same game can be played by pointing out that progressive diseases inevitably lead to a fatal outcome.

lorenzhs 11y ago
No, it has not been hijacked - it has two meanings. See, for example, https://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/learner/progressive https://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/learner/progre... or consult your favourite dictionary.