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I've worked with some pretty good PMs, but even they seemed to be good primarily because they had good gut instincts and not because they applied a rigorous pro

by zzalpha 11y ago

I've worked with some pretty good PMs, but even they seemed to be good primarily because they had good gut instincts and not because they applied a rigorous process. So have you provided a rigorous, data-driven defense of every decision you've made as an engineer? 'cuz I've met a lot of great engineers whio made great decisions primarily because they had good gut instincts and not because they applied a rigorous process. I've also seen engineering teams suffer because of a ten-second decision made by someone a year previously. We're more similar than you think. :) The sad reality is PM is fundamentally a dark art, even more so than engineering, which is, let's face it, driven as much by instinct as true engineering principles. Now, that doesn't excuse a PM from not doing market research, not doing cost/benefit analysis, not tracking KPIs, etc, etc. PMs should view themselves like an entrepreneur, and should always be looking to back their decisions with data like any other business owner. But ultimately, good instincts have to be part of the skillset. And just like an engineer, sometimes decisions are made based on a gut reaction, particularly when decisions have to be made very quickly (which happens more often than we'd all like).

notacoward 11y ago
> So have you provided a rigorous, data-driven defense of every decision you've made as an engineer? Not every one, no, but most of the time. What you're engaging in here is tu quoque, as if an occasional behavior in one group justifies a continual behavior in another. Ain't so. > I've met a lot of great engineers whio made great decisions primarily because they had good gut instinct As have I. I've also met some PMs who were likewise, and said as much. All I'm saying is that relying on that all the time can cause resentment. > The sad reality is PM is fundamentally a dark art That's OK, though I believe it's probably less true than you or the OP seem to believe. What's most injurious to the PM/engineering relationship is not the lack of rigor but the lack of transparency that goes with it. Often PMs don't even try to explain where their priorities came from, and don't admit when they're just guessing. We engineers can deal with guesses. As you point out, we make them ourselves all the time, but we acknowledge that they're guesses and therefore inferior to any data that might come along. "Because I'm the PM" is too often the only reason given, and of course that leads to animosity.
- zzalpha 11y ago
  "Because I'm the PM" is too often the only reason given, and of course that leads to animosity. Ah, well, that's a different problem: PM arrogance. Confidence + Humility is not contradictory to Leadership, but unfortunately not everyone understands that. 'course, many also don't understand that Manager and Leader are two different things... and a Product Manager has to be both.

by zzalpha 11y ago

notacoward 11y ago

> So have you provided a rigorous, data-driven defense of every decision you've made as an engineer? Not every one, no, but most of the time. What you're engaging in here is tu quoque, as if an occasional behavior in one group justifies a continual behavior in another. Ain't so. > I've met a lot of great engineers whio made great decisions primarily because they had good gut instinct As have I. I've also met some PMs who were likewise, and said as much. All I'm saying is that relying on that all the time can cause resentment. > The sad reality is PM is fundamentally a dark art That's OK, though I believe it's probably less true than you or the OP seem to believe. What's most injurious to the PM/engineering relationship is not the lack of rigor but the lack of transparency that goes with it. Often PMs don't even try to explain where their priorities came from, and don't admit when they're just guessing. We engineers can deal with guesses. As you point out, we make them ourselves all the time, but we acknowledge that they're guesses and therefore inferior to any data that might come along. "Because I'm the PM" is too often the only reason given, and of course that leads to animosity.

zzalpha 11y ago
"Because I'm the PM" is too often the only reason given, and of course that leads to animosity. Ah, well, that's a different problem: PM arrogance. Confidence + Humility is not contradictory to Leadership, but unfortunately not everyone understands that. 'course, many also don't understand that Manager and Leader are two different things... and a Product Manager has to be both.