5 ms·

I'm a queer person. I don't find scripture-based Christianity to be a particularly good moral compass.

dvt 11y ago
The golden rule of Christianity (and the primary tenet of the New Testament) is "love your neighbor as you love thyself". Perhaps you can explain why the above is not a good moral compass.
- vezzy-fnord 11y ago
  You're beating around the bush. Christianity explicitly regards homosexuality as sinful and detestable. [1] [2] As such someone is homosexual would be in the right from their self-interest and self-preservation to question its validity as a moral compass. [1] https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/121/what-does-the-bible-say-about-homosexuality https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/121/what-do... [2] https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/1086/does-god-create-some-people-heterosexual-and-others-homosexual https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/1086/does-g...
  - dvt 11y ago
    Seeing as the answers you linked are primarily justified by the Old Testament, I assume you don't really understand Christian Theology. In the NT, the only reference to homosexuality is found in Romans which has two key elements: (a) it's not spoken by Jesus and (b) can be interpreted as a criticism of sexual promiscuity in general. Christianity does not explicitly regard homosexuality as sinful or detestable. There are openly gay ministers in the Lutheran and Anglican churches, for example.
    - vezzy-fnord 11y ago
      Yet the OT is still in valid effect. Most of the Christian rules - the "613 mitzvot" as known in Judaism, where they are more significant what with Jewish identity focusing on lineage from the Israelites, but still many of them valid by Christian denominations even if mostly shortened to just the 10 in mainstream discourse - are derived from the OT. Christianity has many more figures than Jesus, so this in of itself is not convincing. In addition, "can be interpreted as" is weasel wording and the whole problem to begin with. Furthermore, that some denominations do not regard it as sinful does not mean that it is Biblically the case. We must concur there is such a thing as heterodoxy. Since Christianity regards all humans as being intrinsically sinful, it may be the case some denominations do not consider homosexuality grave enough a sin to deny them becoming ministers, provided of course they suppress their sinful urges as is customary to the religion.
    - cbd1984 11y ago
      > Seeing as the answers you linked are primarily justified by the Old Testament, I assume you don't really understand Christian Theology. They understand it just as well as the leadership and followings of multiple major denominations. Citing this would be an insult to the intelligence of everyone here.
    - olavk 11y ago
      > Christianity does not explicitly regard homosexuality as sinful or detestable. What do you mean by 'Christianity' in this context? Some denominations consider homosexuality sinful and detestable and some does not. Are you going to argue that the ones you disagree with are not 'True Christians'?
      - dvt 11y ago
        I think any group of people that fuels hatred and vitriol by definition can't be Christian. The KKK, for example, have traditionally been a "Christian" group. Do I consider them to be Christian? Absolutely not. Do you? I invite you to draw the lines wherever you want.
        cbd1984 11y ago
        Any group that says it's Christian is Christian. Otherwise, we have one group of True Christians dictating to everyone what their faith must consist of. We Americans fought a revolution in order to found a country where that could not happen. Do you think it should be allowed to happen?
        dvt 11y ago
        Sure, that sounds good. It doesn't really matter how you draw the lines in the sand. My original point still stands.
        olavk 11y ago
        The bottom line is that a scripture which states that homosexuals shall be killed and you are allowed to beat your slaves to death, is a bad moral compass. Of course many groups have found ways to interpret this scripture in more benign ways, but the scripture itself is pretty hateful. Sure you can always cherry pick the things you like and discard the rest, but then you are using another moral compass to direct the picking. E.g if you discard the OT then you also discard the ten commandments. But people tend to think it is still wrong to murder and steal, so then end up picking some of the rules in the OT but ignoring others. "Love your neighbor" is from the OT also, btw.
- delecti 11y ago
  Unless you want to get into a "no true Scotsman" argument, you can't really argue that Christianity as it's widely practiced actually abides by that.
  - dvt 11y ago
    Is the straw-man really your most powerful rhetorical tactic? We're talking about ethics here. Obviously when any ethical system -- no matter how secular or religious -- is put in the hands of ordinary folks, things can (and do) get muddy. With that said, the golden rule is absolutely an ideal that most Christians try to abide by. (Barring some off-the-wall cases like the Westboro Baptist Church).
    - delecti 11y ago
      Bigoted Christians aren't a straw-man, and for you to think so must require some seriously rose-tinted glasses. The fact that homosexuality (to carry on from the grandparent comment) was so recently a punishable offense even in the US, let alone the rest of the world, should be pretty airtight evidence against that being a straw-man.
      - dvt 11y ago
        > Bigoted Christians aren't a straw-man Yes they are. The corruption of a religious institution has as little to do with the ethical and moral underpinnings of its religion as gun-toting Confederate-flag-flying rednecks have to do with the Second Amendment.
        delecti 11y ago
        You're parroting a textbook example of the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. Maybe "real Christianity" is as you describe, but the majority of practicing Christians in the real world are just as bigoted and awful as the majority of everybody else.
        11y ago

dvt 11y ago

The golden rule of Christianity (and the primary tenet of the New Testament) is "love your neighbor as you love thyself". Perhaps you can explain why the above is not a good moral compass.

vezzy-fnord 11y ago
You're beating around the bush. Christianity explicitly regards homosexuality as sinful and detestable. [1] [2] As such someone is homosexual would be in the right from their self-interest and self-preservation to question its validity as a moral compass. [1] https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/121/what-does-the-bible-say-about-homosexuality https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/121/what-do... [2] https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/1086/does-god-create-some-people-heterosexual-and-others-homosexual https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/1086/does-g...
- dvt 11y ago
  Seeing as the answers you linked are primarily justified by the Old Testament, I assume you don't really understand Christian Theology. In the NT, the only reference to homosexuality is found in Romans which has two key elements: (a) it's not spoken by Jesus and (b) can be interpreted as a criticism of sexual promiscuity in general. Christianity does not explicitly regard homosexuality as sinful or detestable. There are openly gay ministers in the Lutheran and Anglican churches, for example.
  - vezzy-fnord 11y ago
    Yet the OT is still in valid effect. Most of the Christian rules - the "613 mitzvot" as known in Judaism, where they are more significant what with Jewish identity focusing on lineage from the Israelites, but still many of them valid by Christian denominations even if mostly shortened to just the 10 in mainstream discourse - are derived from the OT. Christianity has many more figures than Jesus, so this in of itself is not convincing. In addition, "can be interpreted as" is weasel wording and the whole problem to begin with. Furthermore, that some denominations do not regard it as sinful does not mean that it is Biblically the case. We must concur there is such a thing as heterodoxy. Since Christianity regards all humans as being intrinsically sinful, it may be the case some denominations do not consider homosexuality grave enough a sin to deny them becoming ministers, provided of course they suppress their sinful urges as is customary to the religion.
  - cbd1984 11y ago
    > Seeing as the answers you linked are primarily justified by the Old Testament, I assume you don't really understand Christian Theology. They understand it just as well as the leadership and followings of multiple major denominations. Citing this would be an insult to the intelligence of everyone here.
  - olavk 11y ago
    > Christianity does not explicitly regard homosexuality as sinful or detestable. What do you mean by 'Christianity' in this context? Some denominations consider homosexuality sinful and detestable and some does not. Are you going to argue that the ones you disagree with are not 'True Christians'?
    - dvt 11y ago
      I think any group of people that fuels hatred and vitriol by definition can't be Christian. The KKK, for example, have traditionally been a "Christian" group. Do I consider them to be Christian? Absolutely not. Do you? I invite you to draw the lines wherever you want.
      - cbd1984 11y ago
        Any group that says it's Christian is Christian. Otherwise, we have one group of True Christians dictating to everyone what their faith must consist of. We Americans fought a revolution in order to found a country where that could not happen. Do you think it should be allowed to happen?
        dvt 11y ago
        Sure, that sounds good. It doesn't really matter how you draw the lines in the sand. My original point still stands.
      - olavk 11y ago
        The bottom line is that a scripture which states that homosexuals shall be killed and you are allowed to beat your slaves to death, is a bad moral compass. Of course many groups have found ways to interpret this scripture in more benign ways, but the scripture itself is pretty hateful. Sure you can always cherry pick the things you like and discard the rest, but then you are using another moral compass to direct the picking. E.g if you discard the OT then you also discard the ten commandments. But people tend to think it is still wrong to murder and steal, so then end up picking some of the rules in the OT but ignoring others. "Love your neighbor" is from the OT also, btw.
delecti 11y ago
Unless you want to get into a "no true Scotsman" argument, you can't really argue that Christianity as it's widely practiced actually abides by that.
- dvt 11y ago
  Is the straw-man really your most powerful rhetorical tactic? We're talking about ethics here. Obviously when any ethical system -- no matter how secular or religious -- is put in the hands of ordinary folks, things can (and do) get muddy. With that said, the golden rule is absolutely an ideal that most Christians try to abide by. (Barring some off-the-wall cases like the Westboro Baptist Church).
  - delecti 11y ago
    Bigoted Christians aren't a straw-man, and for you to think so must require some seriously rose-tinted glasses. The fact that homosexuality (to carry on from the grandparent comment) was so recently a punishable offense even in the US, let alone the rest of the world, should be pretty airtight evidence against that being a straw-man.
    - dvt 11y ago
      > Bigoted Christians aren't a straw-man Yes they are. The corruption of a religious institution has as little to do with the ethical and moral underpinnings of its religion as gun-toting Confederate-flag-flying rednecks have to do with the Second Amendment.
      - delecti 11y ago
        You're parroting a textbook example of the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. Maybe "real Christianity" is as you describe, but the majority of practicing Christians in the real world are just as bigoted and awful as the majority of everybody else.
        11y ago