14 ms·

I can totally understand why individuals with substance abuse problems give up in their early 50's and commit suicide, as I personally have felt this tug at tim

by cubano 11y ago

I can totally understand why individuals with substance abuse problems give up in their early 50's and commit suicide, as I personally have felt this tug at times. It is very difficult, both emotionally and financially, to look back at a life of wrecked relationships and blown opportunities and not feel an intense disgust with yourself and a deep fear about the future. Also, there is simply no place for you in society anymore. In your 50's, you are almost completely judged by your status in life; your house, your cars, your relationships...someone fighting addiction for 30 years will have little to none of this. Even super close old friends eventually give up on you and stop returning calls. I often say these days the only real regrets I have in life is hurting those who loved me due to my substance abuse lifestyle.

yeahrite 11y ago
I think that you are doing great.
lujim 11y ago
Painful to read. Addiction lives in a gray area of free will. Although people make bad decisions and we all need to own our mistakes, there is a good chance that most of the time you were just along for the same crappy ride as your family and friends. You are in the unfortunate position of having to bear the brunt of the guilt.
- drzaiusapelord 11y ago
  This is why I'm largely against drug liberalization. Pot and maybe MDMA sure, but everything else, probably best left illegal. I could see exceptions for psychedlics for medical use, but not the kind of thing you would buy at the corner store, but administered by a doctor. The hysterical "legalize everything" crowd has probably set back sane drug reform for decades. I don't think these people remotely understand how addiction ruins lives and families and how hard it is to get out of it.
  - jacquesm 11y ago
    There are two things that I see often confused: legalization vs decriminalization and to me they mean different things. The problem is the users and the traders are often lumped together (and sure there are users that trade too). Tackle the traders but leave the users alone. This will still drive up prices and will still force some people into crime (but other crimes than mere possession) but it would be a good first step towards treating substance abuse (and that includes alcohol by the way) as a personal problem rather than a crime. That does not automatically translate into 'crack and heroin should be available at the corner store'. Nor does it translate into a free pass for traders or producers.
    - Lawtonfogle 11y ago
      >Tackle the traders but leave the users alone. I prefer the Swedish model used to handle prostitution. Selling is legal, buying is the crime.
      - drumdance 11y ago
        Just curious - can sellers be forced to disclose their buyer list?
        Lawtonfogle 11y ago
        One of the reasons that such a model still has problems. (Just to be clear, I don't actually like that model. I just find it interesting that it even exists when the general view for illegal transactions are that sellers are worse than buyers.)
    - dantheman 11y ago
      By making the distribution illegal you create organized crime and export it around the world. Drugs should be legal.
    - morgante 11y ago
      > and that includes alcohol by the way) Give me a break. Having the occasional beer is not substance abuse and shouldn't be criminalized.
rayiner 11y ago
> Also, there is simply no place for you in society anymore. In your 50's, you are almost completely judged by your status in life; your house, your cars, your relationships...someone fighting addiction for 30 years will have little to none of this. Much of the country is not that way. My father in law is that age, and I think very few people in his community would judge him by that standard. He's a prominent member of a popular foodie Facebook group in his town, to the point where people stop him in the street and take selfies with him. In his community, that's a much bigger deal than owning a Porsche. Almost all of my wife's side of the family (from coastal Oregon) is like that. Most of her cousins are doing great things with food, art, or in the church, and people praise them for that. When they ask what we do (we're both corporate attorneys), they nod politely. I am sure they would be horrified--rather than impressed--to hear how much we spend on rent.
- sanderjd 11y ago
  Those are just different status indicators. The parent's point that people are expected to accumulate status stands.
  - rayiner 11y ago
    A former drug abuser starting over at 50 has a fighting chance at finding a "place in society" when that society cares more about how you contribute your time than about your accumulated wealth.
    - sanderjd 11y ago
      This is a good point, and I'm finding on re-reading my comment that I was too flippant. I do think the point stands that it is easier for younger people to find their place without existing expertise or relationships, but certainly it's easier to build status in some communities than others.
- cubano 11y ago
  > He's a prominent member of a popular foodie Facebook group in his town, to the point where people stop him in the street and take selfies with him. In his community, that's a much bigger deal ... You are kinda making my point for me, aren't you? Notice I included the "your relationships" constraint. I've yet to experience the "Hey, you were all messed up heroin a few years ago weren't you? Let's selfie..."
fasteo 11y ago
Very few times so few words made my heart sink. Stay well.
SCAQTony 11y ago
I have to agree especially with your third third paragraph. I am finding that friends of mine are picking up drugs and alcohol again at around age 50 even though they became sober post college. I suspect it is the emotional pain of poor life choices, feeling irrelevant, and no savings due to not being as educated as the new economy demands. I lost a friend suicide and what perplexes me is why to do depressed people gravitate towards depressants like alcohol and Vicodin?
- taway1234567890 11y ago
  If the only things you feel are bad, you may gravitate towards things that suppress your ability to feel anything.
  - cubano 11y ago
    Amen^2
drumdance 11y ago
I have spent tens of thousands of dollars on my mental health and well being. Everything from multi-year therapy to prescription drugs to supplements to expensive exercise classes to self-help retreats. And in the last couple years I've been using testosterone (prescribed) to help me keep up my energy levels. And they have helped me a lot. On a day-to-day basis I feel better than I did at 25. Nonetheless I must be constantly vigilant lest my depression and alcoholism return. I really feel for people who don't have the money for those things. If I ever became super-wealthy I would focus my philanthropy on mental health. If your brain is working at suboptimal level, it's really difficult to improve your life situation.
- ldarcyftw 11y ago
  Would you be willing to elaborate on things you wanted to fix/options available/experiences?
  - drumdance 11y ago
    Off the top of my head: * Therapy off and on for about 20 years. I got something from all of it but the last five years in particular has been great. Currently I only go a few times a year, but for about a year I went once a week. $135 per session. * Various prescription drugs, the most impactful of which has been Zoloft. Bit also Chantix to quite tobacco and Antabuse to help me with alcoholism * Membership in mastermind groups - some business-oriented, others geared toward personal development. Usually there is at least one meetup/retreat involved. In 2013-15 I did one retreat per quarter. That group cost me about $10,000 a year in dues plus travel. * Fitness classes - $150/month for the last five years or so * Quality of life stuff like owning a luxury car, living in a beautiful place, international travel at least once a year, and so on.
    - quickpost 11y ago
      Great list of stuff and makes think I need to do more of that, with the only possible exception being the prescription drugs. How did Zoloft have such a great impact on you? Can you describe what you felt like off of it vs on it and how it changes you in a positive way? I'm very curious (and curious to know if it would benefit me long term).
kingkawn 11y ago
I think that your perspective on what others value deeply is a root belief that can lead to a life of substance abuse. Others are not as cruel as you imagine them to be. You are the one holding yourself to this unkind standard. Yes there are some who are happy to join you in this belief, but that does not make it any less harmful or less your own choice. There is no inherent command to look for reasons to continue to feel that you are not worthwhile. There are other things to discover that are equally as convincing if you give them a look.
zeidrich 11y ago
I think it's a big challenge of culture. Substance abuse is a problem that becomes a symptom. Part of the issue I think is cultural ideas about mental health. American culture is strongly focused on good and bad, strength of will and weakness, and where to place blame. Both the person with the addiction and the rest of society are affected by this culture. When you become addicted to a substance, it's like it becomes revealed to society that you're a weak person. Like weakness is part of your identity. A good person is strong, a good person has the strength of will to not abuse substances. You're not a good person. When you look back at your life, you see the same faults and have the same regrets. You think of yourself as a weak person. The problem with those sorts of ideas is they reinforce the behavior that leads to things like substance abuse. They isolate you, they make you lose motivation, they make you act in a self destructive manner because you think you are the kind of person who should. These are cultural elements that are present everywhere but relatively stronger in American culture. It really likes to put people into boxes, quite literally. People who commit a crime are considered criminals. The crime can be pretty minor, but maybe it sends you to jail. Criminals are bad, and people who go to jail are bad. Good people won't interact with bad people. You can lose your job, you can lose the ability to find another, you can lose your home, you can lose your ability to find another. But good people don't care, bad people go to jail. Bad people need to be punished. Bad people don't deserve our attention. Bad people don't deserve our money. Other cultures are a bit less polarized. The need to brand someone good or bad isn't as strong. If you commit a crime, you go to jail, but you're treated like a person, you're given opportunities to correct some of the issues that sent you there, you're released in a manner that tries to help integrate you into the rest of society. American culture sees things like this and gets very angry. How dare you spend MY tax dollars on feeding THOSE bad people nice food, and give them comfortable beds!? How dare you help bad people fix their problems when good people fix their problems themselves? A person who abuses substances needs to be helped. It's a problem that is self-reinforcing and really need some external support to break. The issue is that to ask for help identifies you as weak. It lets out the "secret" that you're not good enough, you don't have that imaginary "indomitable will" that good people have that keep them from doing bad things. The person feels this and is afraid to ask, and society feels this and will punish you for doing so. It's like how mental health issues, like suicide attempts can go into your police file and keep you from being allowed to cross the border. These sorts of cultural impacts cause people to be afraid to look for help, and not just be afraid, but be punished for looking for help. I think for the person in that situation, there's very little you can do to change the rest of society. But I think you can change your own mind, and I don't mean you can buck up and use that indomitable will to shrug off your addiction. I mean, you can recognize that you aren't a bad person or a weak person. You're not significantly different than your neighbor, it's just that you had a different set of circumstances 30-40 years ago and ended up learning a different set of habits and coping behavior. Had they been exposed to the same things and presented the same circumstances, they could be in your shoes. You can identify the small things in life that are important, and you can look towards what is needed to make your life a bit more like that. It doesn't even have to be getting rid of your addiction, it could be that you want to keep your home tidy, it could be that you want to eat breakfast in the morning, it could be that you want to get in shape, it could be that you like to read Stephen King novels, it could be that you want to spend time with a friend. And you can do little things to move that forward. You can throw a couple of things off the counter into the garbage, you can get a dozen eggs for breakfast tomorrow, you could take a walk around the block, you could read a chapter, you could chat with a friend for a few minutes. It's a matter of not believing the lie that you're any better or worse. You're a person who does some things. You've done some hurtful things, but at this point you can only do things now. You aren't a bad person, you aren't a good person. You're a person who can do things. And while society can limit their interactions with you because of their own mindset, you still have a lot of latitude to do many things despite that. You're judged by your lifestyle. Yeah, that's unfortunate. But you can still clean your house, get up early and go for a run, eat some breakfast, read your favorite books and chat with your friends after work. The unfortunate part is that even if you "get your life back together" people's mindset might never change and think about the fact that people aren't strictly good or bad. It's more likely they'll just think you've changed and now you're good. But maybe you will have learned that, and that's something.
austinjp 11y ago
Thanks for sharing this. It might not be too late to apologise to some of those you feel suffered, if they're still around. Good luck for the future, and remember that those who know you now are lucky in every way :)

by cubano 11y ago

yeahrite 11y ago

I think that you are doing great.

lujim 11y ago

Painful to read. Addiction lives in a gray area of free will. Although people make bad decisions and we all need to own our mistakes, there is a good chance that most of the time you were just along for the same crappy ride as your family and friends. You are in the unfortunate position of having to bear the brunt of the guilt.

drzaiusapelord 11y ago
This is why I'm largely against drug liberalization. Pot and maybe MDMA sure, but everything else, probably best left illegal. I could see exceptions for psychedlics for medical use, but not the kind of thing you would buy at the corner store, but administered by a doctor. The hysterical "legalize everything" crowd has probably set back sane drug reform for decades. I don't think these people remotely understand how addiction ruins lives and families and how hard it is to get out of it.
- jacquesm 11y ago
  There are two things that I see often confused: legalization vs decriminalization and to me they mean different things. The problem is the users and the traders are often lumped together (and sure there are users that trade too). Tackle the traders but leave the users alone. This will still drive up prices and will still force some people into crime (but other crimes than mere possession) but it would be a good first step towards treating substance abuse (and that includes alcohol by the way) as a personal problem rather than a crime. That does not automatically translate into 'crack and heroin should be available at the corner store'. Nor does it translate into a free pass for traders or producers.
  - Lawtonfogle 11y ago
    >Tackle the traders but leave the users alone. I prefer the Swedish model used to handle prostitution. Selling is legal, buying is the crime.
    - drumdance 11y ago
      Just curious - can sellers be forced to disclose their buyer list?
      - Lawtonfogle 11y ago
        One of the reasons that such a model still has problems. (Just to be clear, I don't actually like that model. I just find it interesting that it even exists when the general view for illegal transactions are that sellers are worse than buyers.)
  - dantheman 11y ago
    By making the distribution illegal you create organized crime and export it around the world. Drugs should be legal.
  - morgante 11y ago
    > and that includes alcohol by the way) Give me a break. Having the occasional beer is not substance abuse and shouldn't be criminalized.

rayiner 11y ago

> Also, there is simply no place for you in society anymore. In your 50's, you are almost completely judged by your status in life; your house, your cars, your relationships...someone fighting addiction for 30 years will have little to none of this. Much of the country is not that way. My father in law is that age, and I think very few people in his community would judge him by that standard. He's a prominent member of a popular foodie Facebook group in his town, to the point where people stop him in the street and take selfies with him. In his community, that's a much bigger deal than owning a Porsche. Almost all of my wife's side of the family (from coastal Oregon) is like that. Most of her cousins are doing great things with food, art, or in the church, and people praise them for that. When they ask what we do (we're both corporate attorneys), they nod politely. I am sure they would be horrified--rather than impressed--to hear how much we spend on rent.

sanderjd 11y ago
Those are just different status indicators. The parent's point that people are expected to accumulate status stands.
- rayiner 11y ago
  A former drug abuser starting over at 50 has a fighting chance at finding a "place in society" when that society cares more about how you contribute your time than about your accumulated wealth.
  - sanderjd 11y ago
    This is a good point, and I'm finding on re-reading my comment that I was too flippant. I do think the point stands that it is easier for younger people to find their place without existing expertise or relationships, but certainly it's easier to build status in some communities than others.
cubano 11y ago
> He's a prominent member of a popular foodie Facebook group in his town, to the point where people stop him in the street and take selfies with him. In his community, that's a much bigger deal ... You are kinda making my point for me, aren't you? Notice I included the "your relationships" constraint. I've yet to experience the "Hey, you were all messed up heroin a few years ago weren't you? Let's selfie..."

fasteo 11y ago

Very few times so few words made my heart sink. Stay well.

SCAQTony 11y ago

I have to agree especially with your third third paragraph. I am finding that friends of mine are picking up drugs and alcohol again at around age 50 even though they became sober post college. I suspect it is the emotional pain of poor life choices, feeling irrelevant, and no savings due to not being as educated as the new economy demands. I lost a friend suicide and what perplexes me is why to do depressed people gravitate towards depressants like alcohol and Vicodin?

taway1234567890 11y ago
If the only things you feel are bad, you may gravitate towards things that suppress your ability to feel anything.
- cubano 11y ago
  Amen^2

drumdance 11y ago

I have spent tens of thousands of dollars on my mental health and well being. Everything from multi-year therapy to prescription drugs to supplements to expensive exercise classes to self-help retreats. And in the last couple years I've been using testosterone (prescribed) to help me keep up my energy levels. And they have helped me a lot. On a day-to-day basis I feel better than I did at 25. Nonetheless I must be constantly vigilant lest my depression and alcoholism return. I really feel for people who don't have the money for those things. If I ever became super-wealthy I would focus my philanthropy on mental health. If your brain is working at suboptimal level, it's really difficult to improve your life situation.

ldarcyftw 11y ago
Would you be willing to elaborate on things you wanted to fix/options available/experiences?
- drumdance 11y ago
  Off the top of my head: * Therapy off and on for about 20 years. I got something from all of it but the last five years in particular has been great. Currently I only go a few times a year, but for about a year I went once a week. $135 per session. * Various prescription drugs, the most impactful of which has been Zoloft. Bit also Chantix to quite tobacco and Antabuse to help me with alcoholism * Membership in mastermind groups - some business-oriented, others geared toward personal development. Usually there is at least one meetup/retreat involved. In 2013-15 I did one retreat per quarter. That group cost me about $10,000 a year in dues plus travel. * Fitness classes - $150/month for the last five years or so * Quality of life stuff like owning a luxury car, living in a beautiful place, international travel at least once a year, and so on.
  - quickpost 11y ago
    Great list of stuff and makes think I need to do more of that, with the only possible exception being the prescription drugs. How did Zoloft have such a great impact on you? Can you describe what you felt like off of it vs on it and how it changes you in a positive way? I'm very curious (and curious to know if it would benefit me long term).

kingkawn 11y ago

I think that your perspective on what others value deeply is a root belief that can lead to a life of substance abuse. Others are not as cruel as you imagine them to be. You are the one holding yourself to this unkind standard. Yes there are some who are happy to join you in this belief, but that does not make it any less harmful or less your own choice. There is no inherent command to look for reasons to continue to feel that you are not worthwhile. There are other things to discover that are equally as convincing if you give them a look.

zeidrich 11y ago

I think it's a big challenge of culture. Substance abuse is a problem that becomes a symptom. Part of the issue I think is cultural ideas about mental health. American culture is strongly focused on good and bad, strength of will and weakness, and where to place blame. Both the person with the addiction and the rest of society are affected by this culture. When you become addicted to a substance, it's like it becomes revealed to society that you're a weak person. Like weakness is part of your identity. A good person is strong, a good person has the strength of will to not abuse substances. You're not a good person. When you look back at your life, you see the same faults and have the same regrets. You think of yourself as a weak person. The problem with those sorts of ideas is they reinforce the behavior that leads to things like substance abuse. They isolate you, they make you lose motivation, they make you act in a self destructive manner because you think you are the kind of person who should. These are cultural elements that are present everywhere but relatively stronger in American culture. It really likes to put people into boxes, quite literally. People who commit a crime are considered criminals. The crime can be pretty minor, but maybe it sends you to jail. Criminals are bad, and people who go to jail are bad. Good people won't interact with bad people. You can lose your job, you can lose the ability to find another, you can lose your home, you can lose your ability to find another. But good people don't care, bad people go to jail. Bad people need to be punished. Bad people don't deserve our attention. Bad people don't deserve our money. Other cultures are a bit less polarized. The need to brand someone good or bad isn't as strong. If you commit a crime, you go to jail, but you're treated like a person, you're given opportunities to correct some of the issues that sent you there, you're released in a manner that tries to help integrate you into the rest of society. American culture sees things like this and gets very angry. How dare you spend MY tax dollars on feeding THOSE bad people nice food, and give them comfortable beds!? How dare you help bad people fix their problems when good people fix their problems themselves? A person who abuses substances needs to be helped. It's a problem that is self-reinforcing and really need some external support to break. The issue is that to ask for help identifies you as weak. It lets out the "secret" that you're not good enough, you don't have that imaginary "indomitable will" that good people have that keep them from doing bad things. The person feels this and is afraid to ask, and society feels this and will punish you for doing so. It's like how mental health issues, like suicide attempts can go into your police file and keep you from being allowed to cross the border. These sorts of cultural impacts cause people to be afraid to look for help, and not just be afraid, but be punished for looking for help. I think for the person in that situation, there's very little you can do to change the rest of society. But I think you can change your own mind, and I don't mean you can buck up and use that indomitable will to shrug off your addiction. I mean, you can recognize that you aren't a bad person or a weak person. You're not significantly different than your neighbor, it's just that you had a different set of circumstances 30-40 years ago and ended up learning a different set of habits and coping behavior. Had they been exposed to the same things and presented the same circumstances, they could be in your shoes. You can identify the small things in life that are important, and you can look towards what is needed to make your life a bit more like that. It doesn't even have to be getting rid of your addiction, it could be that you want to keep your home tidy, it could be that you want to eat breakfast in the morning, it could be that you want to get in shape, it could be that you like to read Stephen King novels, it could be that you want to spend time with a friend. And you can do little things to move that forward. You can throw a couple of things off the counter into the garbage, you can get a dozen eggs for breakfast tomorrow, you could take a walk around the block, you could read a chapter, you could chat with a friend for a few minutes. It's a matter of not believing the lie that you're any better or worse. You're a person who does some things. You've done some hurtful things, but at this point you can only do things now. You aren't a bad person, you aren't a good person. You're a person who can do things. And while society can limit their interactions with you because of their own mindset, you still have a lot of latitude to do many things despite that. You're judged by your lifestyle. Yeah, that's unfortunate. But you can still clean your house, get up early and go for a run, eat some breakfast, read your favorite books and chat with your friends after work. The unfortunate part is that even if you "get your life back together" people's mindset might never change and think about the fact that people aren't strictly good or bad. It's more likely they'll just think you've changed and now you're good. But maybe you will have learned that, and that's something.

austinjp 11y ago

Thanks for sharing this. It might not be too late to apologise to some of those you feel suffered, if they're still around. Good luck for the future, and remember that those who know you now are lucky in every way :)