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Ireland to 'decriminalise' small amounts of drugs for personal use
- civilian 11y agoWhy is 'decrminalise' in quotes? Is it b/c it's only partially decriminalized, or is it crappy journalism?
- anigbrowl 11y agoBecause they are quoting the minister, whose remarks form the only basis for the story. No legislation or formal rules have been published yet, so there's no objective basis for describing the proposal. The use of quotation marks is entirely appropriate and not crappy at all.
- degenerate 11y agoThe crappy part is how the journal author tacked "for personal use" onto the title to make it sound like a move to condone hard drug use, when in fact the movement is just the opposite - to help addicts get clean instead of giving them criminal records. So it's crappy journalism, but for a different reason.
- vezzy-fnord 11y agoNot that the former is objectionable. We are all too willing to forgive hard drugs as long as you give them the proper branding, i.e. pharmaceuticals. And of course for good reason. I would go as far as to say that the decriminalization and widespread medical administering of say, ibogaine, would do far more to fight the war on drugs than the actual War on Drugs itself.
- anigbrowl 11y agoYou might want to look into the operational realities for Dutch cannabis 'coffee shops'. I haven't lived there for ~15 years and don't know how it goes now, bu back then there would be multiple deliveries per day to a busy shop so as to stay compliant with the letter of the law about the (very generous) quantities that could be possessed at any given time. This is an important distinction since Ireland has no plans to decriminalize sale or distribution... ...but somehow I suspect that if this is what you had meant, you'd have said so the first time. I think you will be happier if you give up trying to parse headlines so closely, given that they're the literary equivalent of of candy.
- bmelton 11y agoMore likely, "for personal use" means that they've intimated that only a small amount of marijuana will be forgiven in the decriminalization process. We have the same caveat in Maryland, which decriminalizes "personal use amounts". "Personal use" in our case is "up to 10 grams" of marijuana, and anything above that would be considered "for distribution", which is still criminal, and of course still retains the full weight of law previously associated. On top of that, it's worth pointing out the obvious -- decriminalization is not legalization -- it's still "against the law", and is punishable (in Maryland) by fines that raise progressively each time you're caught. Moreover, while the material good itself might be decriminalized, no such decriminalization applies to paraphernalia. To that end, 9 grams of marijuana are mere citations, but a trace amount of marijuana in a pipe is still a criminal offense.
- justincormack 11y agowell selling is illegal, so its not legal per se.
- gearoidoc 11y agoIf they're being specific on 'profiting' then in theory dealers could 'donate' their stashes to addicts and write it off against the tax man :D
- corin_ 11y agoEvery (afaik) country currently classifies distribution as that word is defined - giving drugs to a friend for free is just as illegal as selling them to a stranger for profit. Possibly treated more leniently, I don't know, but not legally different.
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- bovermyer 11y agoIgnoring the quality of the article, I am struck by one thing. Why has Ireland all of a sudden taken such a progressive shift? First national recognition of gay marriage, now this? I'm loving it, wherever it came from.
- jug5 11y agoI came here to say this. This is a huge departure from the status quo in Ireland, very surprised to see this.
- borvo 11y agoThere's nothing new here, Ireland has been changing at a very rapid pace for the last 20 years - becoming progressively more liberal due to many influences, not least the fact that all of a sudden most young people were staying in the country during the celtic tiger years.
- anigbrowl 11y agoIrish guy here (although I live in California now). Demographics, mass abandonment of the Catholic church in recent years (not least due to sex scandals, and the bruising effects of the global financial crisis, which has led to a more pragmatic assessment of priorities. I'm very happy about it too. While I'm not in any rush to head home to the inclement Irish weather it feels like a great validation to see this tide of social liberalization. I was born in 1970 and grew up in a country where divorce was illegal, corporal punishment in schools was legal (and liberally dispensed), and drug use was presented as a moral/class failing. Growing up in a violent household in a country where family life was reified, I fled to the UK as soon as I was old enough to leave home and have rarely been back since. Maybe I should start planning a holiday.
- patrickk 11y agoAnother Irish expat, living in Germany. The cynic in me says the timing of the gay marriage, the abortion referendum on abortion and now this progressive drug stance is the government playing a game of misdirection with the electorate. This current government was elected on the specific promise of fixing the economic mess and getting rid of the disastrous policy of bank debt being hoisted onto the sovereign balance sheet. I know plenty of people who are struggling financially, losing their homes and so on back in Ireland, but by using controversial social measures (which I agree are a step in the right direction) they are distracting from their pathetic failure to fix the economy (any progress you see economically has nothing to do with the government, but a recovery of the global economy and the multinationals in Ireland along with it. We have very little indigenous industry, startups, etc.)
- humbleMouse 11y agoWow, this is great. Thank gosh there are still sane people running somebody's government out there.
- lucideer 11y ago> However, while Mr O Ríordáin told The Irish Times that there was a “strong consensus that drugs across the board should be decriminalised,” he said it would be for Ireland’s next government to discuss. Is probably the most important paragraph there. Election is in the new year - this is probably pre-canvass fluff. That does still indicate a belief that this is what voters want however, which is positive.
- onetimePete 11y agoAnyone remember the absurd projects to freeze parts of humanity in the 70s - to solve problems. Are drugs not basically a freezing process? You age, yes, but you are out of society, out of the high consume, reproduce circle, into something that gets you nowhere and costs you nothing but lifetime while doing them.Actually a good problem solution, if controlled by the state. Lucky for us, every parent on this planet will scream in protest on this statement and enforce a counter policy to extend behaviour control into adult-hood and guarantee offsprings offspring. Thus a Thrug-of-War ensues, called the war on drugs.
- seanmheff 11y agoThere is an election coming up. Maybe its smoke and mirrors
- mahouse 11y agoEspecially smoke.
- iamcurious 11y agoIt is a step in the right direction, but it still half-baked. Without decriminalizing production as well, they are maintaining a monopoly for those that works outside of the law. Which means a very profitable tax free market that has to recreate all of the state features like physical safety and insurance policies from scratch. Every nation that forbids something that is in demand, is gestating its own competition. The laws of capitalism are brutal and can not be escaped. I wonder how far we can go by following the principle that it should be easier for demand to be satisfied legally than illegally.
- seanieb 11y agoFar from half baked (theres a pun here if I look hard enough), Portugal stepped up and did the experiment already. And it worked.
- rwmj 11y agoThe OP's point is that decriminalization leaves the market, the money and the tax revenue with the criminals. As a taxpayer, I want a fair proportion of the money to go to the government, and only full legalization and regulation does that.
- stephengillie 11y agoBut first we have to mollify the masses that the decades of War-On-Drugs FUD is untrue. Show them that drug users are fellow humans, and easier access to the tools they use to generate happiness isn't going to cause rioting on the streets.
- alexqgb 11y agoExactly. One person's idea of a half-baked measure is another's idea of incremental progress. When you can demonstrate that some of what reactionaries believe is flatly wrong it gets a lot easier to chip away at the rest of the errors they've managed to enshrine in law.
- Geekette 11y agoVery interesting news! I wouldn't have expected Ireland to be on this forefront. When I got to the paragraph below, I also couldn't help wondering which nation that was: "His comments follow a leaked report from the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, appearing to call for a worldwide decriminalisation on 19 October. The report was reportedly withdrawn after at least one nation put pressure on the international body to bury the findings of Dr Monica Beg, chief of the HIV/AIDs section of the UNODC in Vienna."
- gearoidoc 11y agoCurious as to why you "wouldn't have expected Ireland to be on this forefront". Not trying to sound accusatory - just genuinely curious on the perception.
- DanBC 11y agoStuff like this (2014) http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/17/ireland-woman-forced-birth-denied-abortion http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/17/ireland-woman-f...
- gearoidoc 11y agoWithout doubt an issue that needs reform (which I believe is coming - there's a lot of campaigning around it). Would be surprised if many people outside the country knew about this problem though. Of course, its possible I'm wrong which is the reason I asked in the first place.
- paddyoloughlin 11y agoYeah, we're not any more progressive on that front at all. There's plenty of pro-choice activism here, but sadly, I believe Ireland still a long way from a civilised, non-hypocritical policy on abortion. I would love to be proven wrong about that.
- AnimalMuppet 11y agoThis is a test as to whether we can downvote a post that we've replied to. Nothing in this post is relevant to the discussion at hand, and no criticism of DanBC's point is implied by my downvote. He volunteered for this experiment.
- hoodoof 11y agoTo really solve the social problems, the sale needs to be legalised. Making the sale a criminal offence puts money into the hands of organized crime, drives up the prices, forces addicts to steal to buy their drugs and leads drug users to take "worse" drugs like methamphetamine because "better" drugs aren't easily available. Drugs need to be made legally to ensure quality, to remove harmful impurities, to ensure the dosage is consistent and predictable which reduces risk of overdose, and especially to ensure that when a person consumes "drug A", they do not in fact get a dose of the more addictive/harmful "drug B" (i.e. methamphetamine). Governments stand to make tax dollars off marijuana too. There's a trail of logic that must be followed - if it is OK to buy and consume drugs, why is it not OK to sell them? The only caveat is that methamphetamine should remain illegal to buy or use. The idea being that people will use "less harmful" drugs than methamphetamine because they are available cheap, easy and clean. The strongest possible justification for legalization of sale and use of drugs is to minimize usage and supply of the greatest of all evils - methamphetamine. We need to accept that people want to get high. You can't arrest that human desire out of existence. We can however remove the harmful effects of criminalization of the sale of drugs. Criminalization fills prisons, wastes police and legal resources, destroys families, prevents people having functional lives and creates both organized crime and petty crime. N.B. personally I'm not interested taking in any drugs except alcohol and caffeine so I'm not angling to be able to get high. I wouldn't take em even if they were legal and free.
- avree 11y agoWhy do you think meth is worse than heroin?
- hoodoof 11y agoMeth junkies go on violent psychotic rampages killing and injuring other people and have no other thought in their brains except to get more meth. When I read in the newspaper about someone murdering their family I expect, and often find either a statement or suggestion that the perpetrator was using meth. Heroin junkies go to sleep and are making a poor health choice but it is possible with clean heroin to lead a functional life including work and family. Drugs that harm the user are "better" (as such) whereas drugs that result in harm to others are "worse".
- andyl 11y agoA small step to remove the fetters of intolerance. But if legalizing small amounts is good, then legalizing large amounts is better. Nobody has the right to limit my ability to take large amounts of drugs - that's my personal business.
- vixen99 11y agoYes they do and no it isn't unless of course you're a hermit living in isolation. For anyone else it's virtually impossible to ensure you (let's go with your example) take all the consequences of your actions as you must if you go along with the dictum 'do as you like if it doesn't affect others'. As a society we curtail many freedoms. Necrophilia hurts no one so should it be legal? Suppose millions decide it's a desirable activity. Do we then decriminalize it? BTW I wonder if Ireland is going to permit industrial production of the desired drugs? As I understand it, the 'small step' as you call it is akin to legalizing the possession of stolen goods.
- lucaspiller 11y agoAlthough I'm generally for legalising drugs, in the short term my concern is this is going just increase petty crime. As gearoidoc said in another comment: > In Ireland, especially Dublin, it's not unusual to see a heroin addict shooting up on public transport. I lived in Dublin city (2 and 1) a few years ago and it's not exactly the safest place. Even in the middle of the day, in the highstreet, I've seen fights between people. This is going to come across as "drugs are ok" and more people will get into them, which will lead to higher petty crime rates.
- aburan28 11y agoThe biggest misconception about drugs is that they were outlawed because of their dangers to society/health. You would be better off habitually using heroin rather then drinking or smoking tobacco
- frenchie091 11y agoThis headline is plain wrong. Ireland isn't about to do this. The news is that our drugs minister is talking about it in the media, and talking about the need for the next government to talk about it. A conversation has started, that's all.
- zamalek 11y agoHow are they skirting around the narcotics treaty[1]? So far as I understand, that treaty is a significant hurdle for most countries considering or implementing legalization. Are they just ignoring it? [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Convention_on_Narcotic_Drugs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Convention_on_Narcotic_...