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It's a common misconception that newer systems bring productivity improvements, but that's not always the case in reality. While there are undoubtedly occasions

by laumars 11y ago

It's a common misconception that newer systems bring productivity improvements, but that's not always the case in reality. While there are undoubtedly occasions when newer systems do bring vast improvements, there are also occasions when newer systems are just trying to reinvent the wheel and ultimately end up little better - or sometimes even worse - than the old system (and that's before you factor in training your staff to use the new systems). There are also occasions when the newer system is trying to change a process in ways that meet modern fashions yet fail to meet a company's core business requirements. Both of the last two points are things I've unfortunately seen a few times in previous jobs. There are generally three points that need to be considered before upgrading an older system: 1. Is the older system still fulfilling the needs? (often jobs change over time and some systems are rigid thus require users to perform additional steps in the modern era to continue to make use of the older system). 2. Is support still available for the older system (eg if it breaks, is hardware available to replace it? Are engineers still available to maintain it? etc) 3. Will the new proposed system fix the aforementioned issues? Often you'll find that the first two points are still or that the 3rd point isn't true. Sadly it's all too common that the reason someone pushes to upgrade older systems is either down to agism ("it's old. Old is bad!") or because someone needs to justify their own job / bulk out their CV ("I was responsible for migrating Company xyz from product a to product b."). With the greatest of respect to yourself, as you get older I think you too will start to notice just how often upgrades go wrong and how some businesses would have been better off sticking with the old system. So there does need to be a carefully considered pragmatism with regards to just how robust some older systems can be and whether the upgrade is actually offering any benefit or whether the older system is genuinely just bad / no longer fulfilling the job requirements.

ryanlol 11y ago
Cassette tapes and fax machines seem to be prime examples of obsolete and unsupported tech that has been mostly replaced with objectively better solutions.
- laumars 11y ago
  Even there, it's not so clear cut. For example, backup tapes are anything but obsolete and unsupported. It may not be the de facto standard any more, but it's still commonplace and the hardware is still manufactured and thus easy to buy new. I also don't agree with your point about fax machines as they are still commonplace in the UK. Granted less so in tech companies, but you see them a lot in governments and legal offices as they're often used for sending legal / official correspondence such as signed contracts. While other mediums do exist that can act as a direct replacement in many instances, some require additional steps (eg sending signed correspondence via e-mail would require an electronic signature, photocopier with SMTP support or another means of scanning the document to PC); or offer little benefit for the additional migration costs (eg backing up to removable HDD over tape doesn't offer any significant improvements. Backing up to the cloud does, but it also offers some significant drawbacks as well, which might mitigate it's practicality for a specific business).
  - mhurron 11y ago
    > I also don't agree with your point about fax machines as they are still commonplace in the UK. They're common in the US too. They're not unsupported equipment.
  - ryanlol 11y ago
    Backup tapes and cassette tapes are obviously a completely different thing, lets not even go there. Yes, fax machines are still used. That doesn't make them not obsolete. Fax is ridiculously slow, requires both participants to have fax machines (so you can't even realistically not have another solution implemented) and on top of all that super insecure.
    - laumars 11y ago
      > Backup tapes and cassette tapes are obviously a completely different thing, lets not even go there. Backup tapes are cassette tapes. Audio cassettes and backup tapes are different (not "completely" as the technology is actually quite similar), but backup tapes are magnetic tapes that come in cassette cartridges. They quite literally are cassette tapes. > Yes, fax machines are still used. That doesn't make them not obsolete. I guess that depends on your definition of "obsolete". Google defines it as "no longer produced or used" and fax machines are still manufactured and -as I described before- used quite common. So definitely not obsolete. It should be noted that I wasn't advocating the use of fax, but I feel the need to address your other points since you've posted quite a specific and one sided opinion on facsimiles: > Fax is ridiculously slow Sending a fax isn't slower than having to manually scan your documents and then email the resulting PDF. Which is the main usage I see it still being used for. In fact in many instances, the alternatives to fax are more laboured even though the actually communication protocol for fax is slow and outdated. > [Fax] requires both participants to have fax machines An endpoint is required with all communication mediums. Even e-mail would require the recipient to have an e-mail address. Plus your point is moot when talking about technology that has already been adopted. If anything, the reason fax is still used is because people already have one so make use of it. > [Fax is] super insecure. This is sadly very true. It is probably the best reason not to use fax but it's also worth baring in mind that even for all it's flaws, fax is still no less secure than a telephone conversation (let's all replace telephones with something! :p) or the depressingly high number of SMTP servers who don't default to TLS. Thankfully that e-mail criticism is now changing at a significant pace. --- Please be mindful that I'm not trying to advocate the usage of fax machine nor magnetic tapes. The tone of your arguments would suggest that you think I am promoting their usage, but I'm really not. I'm just being pragmatic about things. :)
mrob 11y ago
I once worked as a telephone switchboard operator. I used a text user interface based system, with a monochrome green CRT and a high quality keyboard with dedicated keys for all the interface functions. The 80x24 text was clear and easy to read. Everything was extremely fast and reliable, with no perceptible interface pauses ever. I later briefly worked there again after they had "upgraded" to a modern system. This ran a GUI on Windows on commodity hardware. The text was smaller and harder to read (on an early LCD monitor). Not all functions had keyboard shortcuts, and the keyboard itself felt worse. The interface noticeably paused sometimes. The new system was an obvious downgrade, and the build quality of the old one was high enough that I'd expect it to have at least another 10 years of life. I can only guess that management saw the green CRT, assumed it was unacceptably primitive, and didn't bother asking the people who actually used it.
- zdw 11y ago
  Similarly, when Bank ATM's switched from character only green screens with buttons on the side as the interface to full color "GUI" ones with touchscreens, the delays and speed at which you could run the interface went down dramatically, which was quite frustrating if you were used to the old system. Thankfully, the newer touchscreen interfaces are much faster than before - the delays between selections went down. The touchscreens still stink from a UI perspective - too many elements too close to each other, where inadvertent touches can result in unwanted behavior.
  - fluxquanta 11y ago
    ATM software is an example of something that really is becoming needlessly over-engineered. For example, a week or so ago I encountered an ATM that prompted me for my e-mail address to e-mail a receipt (or, as smaller, secondary options, buttons for printing a receipt or declining a receipt all together). It really rubbed me the wrong way. Who is trying to collect my e-mail address? How are they storing it? What else will they use it for? Why is this the default option?

by laumars 11y ago

ryanlol 11y ago

Cassette tapes and fax machines seem to be prime examples of obsolete and unsupported tech that has been mostly replaced with objectively better solutions.

laumars 11y ago
Even there, it's not so clear cut. For example, backup tapes are anything but obsolete and unsupported. It may not be the de facto standard any more, but it's still commonplace and the hardware is still manufactured and thus easy to buy new. I also don't agree with your point about fax machines as they are still commonplace in the UK. Granted less so in tech companies, but you see them a lot in governments and legal offices as they're often used for sending legal / official correspondence such as signed contracts. While other mediums do exist that can act as a direct replacement in many instances, some require additional steps (eg sending signed correspondence via e-mail would require an electronic signature, photocopier with SMTP support or another means of scanning the document to PC); or offer little benefit for the additional migration costs (eg backing up to removable HDD over tape doesn't offer any significant improvements. Backing up to the cloud does, but it also offers some significant drawbacks as well, which might mitigate it's practicality for a specific business).
- mhurron 11y ago
  > I also don't agree with your point about fax machines as they are still commonplace in the UK. They're common in the US too. They're not unsupported equipment.
- ryanlol 11y ago
  Backup tapes and cassette tapes are obviously a completely different thing, lets not even go there. Yes, fax machines are still used. That doesn't make them not obsolete. Fax is ridiculously slow, requires both participants to have fax machines (so you can't even realistically not have another solution implemented) and on top of all that super insecure.
  - laumars 11y ago
    > Backup tapes and cassette tapes are obviously a completely different thing, lets not even go there. Backup tapes are cassette tapes. Audio cassettes and backup tapes are different (not "completely" as the technology is actually quite similar), but backup tapes are magnetic tapes that come in cassette cartridges. They quite literally are cassette tapes. > Yes, fax machines are still used. That doesn't make them not obsolete. I guess that depends on your definition of "obsolete". Google defines it as "no longer produced or used" and fax machines are still manufactured and -as I described before- used quite common. So definitely not obsolete. It should be noted that I wasn't advocating the use of fax, but I feel the need to address your other points since you've posted quite a specific and one sided opinion on facsimiles: > Fax is ridiculously slow Sending a fax isn't slower than having to manually scan your documents and then email the resulting PDF. Which is the main usage I see it still being used for. In fact in many instances, the alternatives to fax are more laboured even though the actually communication protocol for fax is slow and outdated. > [Fax] requires both participants to have fax machines An endpoint is required with all communication mediums. Even e-mail would require the recipient to have an e-mail address. Plus your point is moot when talking about technology that has already been adopted. If anything, the reason fax is still used is because people already have one so make use of it. > [Fax is] super insecure. This is sadly very true. It is probably the best reason not to use fax but it's also worth baring in mind that even for all it's flaws, fax is still no less secure than a telephone conversation (let's all replace telephones with something! :p) or the depressingly high number of SMTP servers who don't default to TLS. Thankfully that e-mail criticism is now changing at a significant pace. --- Please be mindful that I'm not trying to advocate the usage of fax machine nor magnetic tapes. The tone of your arguments would suggest that you think I am promoting their usage, but I'm really not. I'm just being pragmatic about things. :)

mrob 11y ago

I once worked as a telephone switchboard operator. I used a text user interface based system, with a monochrome green CRT and a high quality keyboard with dedicated keys for all the interface functions. The 80x24 text was clear and easy to read. Everything was extremely fast and reliable, with no perceptible interface pauses ever. I later briefly worked there again after they had "upgraded" to a modern system. This ran a GUI on Windows on commodity hardware. The text was smaller and harder to read (on an early LCD monitor). Not all functions had keyboard shortcuts, and the keyboard itself felt worse. The interface noticeably paused sometimes. The new system was an obvious downgrade, and the build quality of the old one was high enough that I'd expect it to have at least another 10 years of life. I can only guess that management saw the green CRT, assumed it was unacceptably primitive, and didn't bother asking the people who actually used it.

zdw 11y ago
Similarly, when Bank ATM's switched from character only green screens with buttons on the side as the interface to full color "GUI" ones with touchscreens, the delays and speed at which you could run the interface went down dramatically, which was quite frustrating if you were used to the old system. Thankfully, the newer touchscreen interfaces are much faster than before - the delays between selections went down. The touchscreens still stink from a UI perspective - too many elements too close to each other, where inadvertent touches can result in unwanted behavior.
- fluxquanta 11y ago
  ATM software is an example of something that really is becoming needlessly over-engineered. For example, a week or so ago I encountered an ATM that prompted me for my e-mail address to e-mail a receipt (or, as smaller, secondary options, buttons for printing a receipt or declining a receipt all together). It really rubbed me the wrong way. Who is trying to collect my e-mail address? How are they storing it? What else will they use it for? Why is this the default option?