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Court ordering someone to unlock their phone has been ruled as a violation of your 5th amendment rights and of 4th amendment rights to privacy by an appellate c

by hguant 11y ago

Court ordering someone to unlock their phone has been ruled as a violation of your 5th amendment rights and of 4th amendment rights to privacy by an appellate court (don't remember which, was slightly surprised when it happened). Basic logic as far as I can remember was that court can't order you to expose phone to them because phones are essentially an extension of our private thoughts in this day and age. Even if evidence is demonstrably on it (say, via looking at metadata), similar to evidence in your own head - court can't force you to fink.

mikeyouse 11y ago
Be wary giving out legal advice if you're not a lawyer.. The courts can force you to do many things, especially if they're not trying to prosecute you for information you may have. Much of the case law that I've seen (note: I'm clearly not a lawyer either) with regard to phone searches has been when the police were seeking evidence that the phone's owner committed crimes -- not after they'd been convicted. This distinction can definitely be important. One concept with specific relevance to the 5th amendment is immunity given for testimony. You can be compelled to testify (even over your 5th amendment objections) if the court grants you immunity for the information that they're after. Again, IANAL, but I know enough that it's much more complicated than "phones are protected from all searches". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution#Grants_of_immunity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_Amendment_to_the_United_...
- jrs235 11y ago
  Can state courts give immunity? I would assume yes. What happens if a state court grants immunity to get at the evidence or testimony but the evidence or testimony could lead to federal or other jurisdictional (another state?) charges or prosecution? How can one be forced in one court to be exposed in others? It would seem the immunity being granted would have to be universal. How can one court/jurisdiction grant such immunity beyond its jurisdiction?
scintill76 11y ago
I think that's only in the Eleventh Circuit (seems to be southeast US, not including the jurisdiction of this case): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_disclosure_law#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_disclosure_law#United_Stat... The other cases listed involved the government already knowing things, so that the 5th didn't apply. If they got a guilty plea, they've probably got enough evidence that a similar situation could apply here. I don't think the Fifth allows you to withhold incriminating evidence you have on other people (as the government wants here.) Hmm, maybe I'm just speculating, but this makes it look even more like a beachhead for being able to do this in the future. Little risk of losing the conviction, no apparent attempt to have the suspect do it himself (but maybe my research is just poor). They've used this tactic before: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Writs_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Writs_Act .

by hguant 11y ago

mikeyouse 11y ago

Be wary giving out legal advice if you're not a lawyer.. The courts can force you to do many things, especially if they're not trying to prosecute you for information you may have. Much of the case law that I've seen (note: I'm clearly not a lawyer either) with regard to phone searches has been when the police were seeking evidence that the phone's owner committed crimes -- not after they'd been convicted. This distinction can definitely be important. One concept with specific relevance to the 5th amendment is immunity given for testimony. You can be compelled to testify (even over your 5th amendment objections) if the court grants you immunity for the information that they're after. Again, IANAL, but I know enough that it's much more complicated than "phones are protected from all searches". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution#Grants_of_immunity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_Amendment_to_the_United_...

jrs235 11y ago
Can state courts give immunity? I would assume yes. What happens if a state court grants immunity to get at the evidence or testimony but the evidence or testimony could lead to federal or other jurisdictional (another state?) charges or prosecution? How can one be forced in one court to be exposed in others? It would seem the immunity being granted would have to be universal. How can one court/jurisdiction grant such immunity beyond its jurisdiction?

scintill76 11y ago

I think that's only in the Eleventh Circuit (seems to be southeast US, not including the jurisdiction of this case): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_disclosure_law#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_disclosure_law#United_Stat... The other cases listed involved the government already knowing things, so that the 5th didn't apply. If they got a guilty plea, they've probably got enough evidence that a similar situation could apply here. I don't think the Fifth allows you to withhold incriminating evidence you have on other people (as the government wants here.) Hmm, maybe I'm just speculating, but this makes it look even more like a beachhead for being able to do this in the future. Little risk of losing the conviction, no apparent attempt to have the suspect do it himself (but maybe my research is just poor). They've used this tactic before: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Writs_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Writs_Act .