4 ms·

While I completely agree with the gist and point of the the article, the word "bullshittery" is a bit over-the-top. I grew up in the suburbs of Detroit and in

While I completely agree with the gist and point of the the article, the word "bullshittery" is a bit over-the-top. I grew up in the suburbs of Detroit and in middle school and high school there was an abudance of shop classes; wood shop, metal shop, electronics, auto shop. In first-year wood shop, we started out with a little coping saw and a file and made golf tee holders and bird houses out of soft pine. After a while, our projects got bigger and we moved on to using stuff like planer and jigsaw. After we demonstrated proficiecy with those we moved on to more complex/dangerous tools like the lathe, table saw and drill presses. Stuff that could easily take a finger off, if you weren't careful. Throwing someone unexperienced at a lathe or a bandsaw is simply _irresponsible_. I think that one need to learn the basics, to grasp the the mechanics, with simplier/less dangerous tool. However, one proficiency is gained there is a new class of tool available to a skilled craftsperson/professional. Yes, its important to learn how to use a coping saw, but that doesn't make a table-saw "bullshit". Just a different class of tool, that could seriously hurt you if you don't know what you are doing.

dfc 11y ago
I had the same response. I can't imagine hearing a carpenter go on and on with "Its absurd that i have to set the depth of my dadoes. Its so hard to be me and have to sharpen my chisels. Someone like me should not have to set the depth of my planes or adjust the width of the opening. Damn you Lie and Neilsen you are ruining my brilliance. If thats not enough I have to constantly explain these things to these wretched apprentices that are always bothering me." It sounds like entitled whining to me. It is a job, not a recreational activity. Soldiers have to clean their rifles and ballerinas need to break in their ballet shoes. I have to imagine that even individuals at the pinnacle of their professions occasionally have to deal with things they would rather avoid.
dexiwz 11y ago
This analogy falls flat when you compare the levels of Unix 'bullshittery' to a shop. In a shop you have a limited number of already working machines that are readily visible. In Unix, you not only have to know how to use the machines, but how to install them, how to repair them, how to select similar, yet slightly different ones, how to copy your machines and make them run the same way in a different location. And on top of that to a novice all of the machines are hidden, and you have to read manuals/tutorials/forums to even know that they exist. Unix tools can sometimes be horribly obtuse to use when first starting out. As you get use to them, you may discover the elegance of simple programs with pipable output, but their beauty is not readily obvious. Going from Windows installers to apt-get to git clone/make/setup, is a long process. Expecting students to already know this eats up time.
- vacri 11y ago
  You're talking about a mythical shop which already has all the tools - very few shops have them all. Similarly, there are plenty of physical tools which are not obvious to use; my housemate tinkers in the shed with wood and he's got a variety of tools, some of which I'm nonplussed in how to use. Plenty of the tools are hidden, whether 'hidden' is defined as 'not present' or 'unclear usage'. Likewise methodology. As a carpenter you might wonder how to curve wood. You might even hear about steam being involved. But unless you're finding out from someone who's already done it, it's not that simple to just steam a bit of wood and usefully bend it from first principles. Hell, even just using a chisel for a novice is easier if you talk to someone first - especially a metalworking chisel.
- 32bitkid 11y ago
  Of course, the analogy falls down–like all analogies–at some point. However, there is a whole realm of industrial fabrication beyond what is available at a simple/hobby shop. To put it a different way: there are tools that I want to use when I am making one of something. Then there are different tools when I am making 10 of something. Again at 100, 1,000, and 1,000,000. I've been a teacher, and I think there is a inherent conflict: As a teacher, I want my students to learn _how_ to do something, but I also want them to do things "right". Those two goals are often at odds. Sometimes the best way to learn is to do it "wrong"; preferably in a safe environment where doing it wrong won't kill/maim you. I think the injustice is trying to teach students how to use the "for a million" tools (which they will _need_ later), when they really struggling with the idea of making one.

dfc 11y ago

I had the same response. I can't imagine hearing a carpenter go on and on with "Its absurd that i have to set the depth of my dadoes. Its so hard to be me and have to sharpen my chisels. Someone like me should not have to set the depth of my planes or adjust the width of the opening. Damn you Lie and Neilsen you are ruining my brilliance. If thats not enough I have to constantly explain these things to these wretched apprentices that are always bothering me." It sounds like entitled whining to me. It is a job, not a recreational activity. Soldiers have to clean their rifles and ballerinas need to break in their ballet shoes. I have to imagine that even individuals at the pinnacle of their professions occasionally have to deal with things they would rather avoid.

dexiwz 11y ago

This analogy falls flat when you compare the levels of Unix 'bullshittery' to a shop. In a shop you have a limited number of already working machines that are readily visible. In Unix, you not only have to know how to use the machines, but how to install them, how to repair them, how to select similar, yet slightly different ones, how to copy your machines and make them run the same way in a different location. And on top of that to a novice all of the machines are hidden, and you have to read manuals/tutorials/forums to even know that they exist. Unix tools can sometimes be horribly obtuse to use when first starting out. As you get use to them, you may discover the elegance of simple programs with pipable output, but their beauty is not readily obvious. Going from Windows installers to apt-get to git clone/make/setup, is a long process. Expecting students to already know this eats up time.

vacri 11y ago
You're talking about a mythical shop which already has all the tools - very few shops have them all. Similarly, there are plenty of physical tools which are not obvious to use; my housemate tinkers in the shed with wood and he's got a variety of tools, some of which I'm nonplussed in how to use. Plenty of the tools are hidden, whether 'hidden' is defined as 'not present' or 'unclear usage'. Likewise methodology. As a carpenter you might wonder how to curve wood. You might even hear about steam being involved. But unless you're finding out from someone who's already done it, it's not that simple to just steam a bit of wood and usefully bend it from first principles. Hell, even just using a chisel for a novice is easier if you talk to someone first - especially a metalworking chisel.
32bitkid 11y ago
Of course, the analogy falls down–like all analogies–at some point. However, there is a whole realm of industrial fabrication beyond what is available at a simple/hobby shop. To put it a different way: there are tools that I want to use when I am making one of something. Then there are different tools when I am making 10 of something. Again at 100, 1,000, and 1,000,000. I've been a teacher, and I think there is a inherent conflict: As a teacher, I want my students to learn _how_ to do something, but I also want them to do things "right". Those two goals are often at odds. Sometimes the best way to learn is to do it "wrong"; preferably in a safe environment where doing it wrong won't kill/maim you. I think the injustice is trying to teach students how to use the "for a million" tools (which they will _need_ later), when they really struggling with the idea of making one.