7 ms·

"Visit some formerly middle class suburbs of cities in the Midwest and you can see exactly why this is happening. No decent jobs, no social clubs, no children p

"Visit some formerly middle class suburbs of cities in the Midwest and you can see exactly why this is happening. No decent jobs, no social clubs, no children playing outside, sports tickets out of the budget of anyone but the 1%, no decent restaurants and obesity everywhere. Add decayed infrastructure and empty malls. You should see it. Horrific. " "These sad statistics should come as no surprise given the pummeling the middle class has taken since 1980. As middle-aged, white males have been fired wholesale by the tens of thousands, battling years of constant unemployment with few or no resources, they have literally reached the end of their means. Broken men are unable to escape from hearing everyday how the executives of their ex-employers are reaping massive profits and personal gains. Their lives are overlaid with exhausted savings and unemployment benefits; all the negatives in their lives beat down on their heads like a ceaseless hailstorm. Finally, swallowing their pride, they turn to the caring myth of family and friends only to find them replaced with the harsh reality of indifferent relatives and unhelpful acquaintances. Too young for Social Security and too old for today's employment prejudices, the unloved and unemployed white males have few options. " [nytimes comments]

mud_dauber 11y ago
As soon as I saw this comment, my first thought was "Holy crap. That sounds like Russia."
- krasin 11y ago
  It's indeed very similar to the description of the contemporary rural Russia (excluding the suburbs of Moscow, and few other large cities). There's one important difference: there's no free public health care in the US. Not that it's great in Russia, but the US has none. :(
  - sologoub 11y ago
    That's not entirely true. Hospitals here are not allowed to turn away those in need, even if they have no insurance. The stays usually turn into uncollectible debts for the hospitals. With obamacare (Affordable Healthcare Act), the free options have been expanded quite a bit. In CA, the medi-cal is basically universally available to low income ($16,105 or under for 1 person, $21k or under for 2 person housefolds). For Russia, if really depends how lucky you get with the doctors or how much you can pay. For much of the system there, people would be better off if it didn't exist. Speaking from personal experience.
    - finance-geek 11y ago
      "The stays usually turn into uncollectible debts for the hospitals." --> "The stays turn into bankruptcy for the patients" Incidentally the leading cause of personal bankruptcy in the US is unpayable hospital bills. For those outside the US, here is how it works: a simple visit to the doctor for antibiotics (the ER, since that becomes your only option) turns into a $1200 bill.
      - sologoub 11y ago
        People in that situation rarely have assets that can be seized, so a bankruptcy is meaningless. You also missed that Obamacare really does take care of a large chunk of the problem, as flawed as it is. The paid options with large assistance (Silver plans) are also fairly affordable. I'm not familiar with non-CA options, but can't imagine them to be that much different from CA ones.
        unprepare 11y ago
        >People in that situation rarely have assets that can be seized, so a bankruptcy is meaningless. Until they want to purchase a home, purchase a car, pass a credit check to get a job, get a credit card, get a loan, start a business, or get a cell phone. remember that a bankruptcy stays on your credit report for 7 years. I would say having a job and a home are far from 'meaningless'
      - ajuc 11y ago
        > a simple visit to the doctor for antibiotics (the ER, since that becomes your only option) turns into a $1200 bill. WOW. It's like $10-$20 in private clinic here. Or free if you want to wait for a few hours.
        galfarragem 11y ago
        Living in East Europe and work in IT to an abroad company (aka getting a super inflationed sallary) is the sweet spot of sustainable life quality - nowadays is probably the best you can find in the world. Be thankful. What for do I want to receive 100K in the Bay area and pay an huge amount of money to get a decent house, health care, safety and schooling for my kids?
  - briandear 11y ago
    Medicaid provides care for the poor. Thus the myth 'there is no free public healthcare' is false. Although technically, no care is free-- someone pays.
- crdoconnor 11y ago
  It isn't a coincidence. Post-1991 Russia and the US have shared some economic advisors (e.g. Larry Summers).
zipwitch 11y ago
Parts of the US are turning into Third World conditions. But don't tell the elite that. They're doing fine, and they have numbers that tell them how great everything is. Orwell meets pre-collapse USSR, with homages to a number of empires of yesteryear, overlaid with a Gilded Age veneer. Something with as much momentum as the United States will not peacefully come to a full stop. It may continue to slide to a slow halt, or explosively disassemble in some fashion.
zipwitch 11y ago
Parts of the US are turning into Third World conditions. But don't tell the elite that. They're doing fine, and they have numbers that tell them how great everything is. Orwell meets pre-collapse USSR, with homages to a number of empires of yesteryear, overlaid with a Gilded Age veneer. Something with as much momentum as the United States will not peacefully come to a full stop. It may continue to slide to a slow halt, or explosively disassemble in some fashion.
carsongross 11y ago
Ross Perot was right, and he was crucified for it.
mirimir 11y ago
Right. The US sold out its middle class to make peace with China, and isolate the USSR. And AI is coming. What will all the truckers do?
curiousgeorgio 11y ago
It's a sad state of affairs made worse by undereducated, lazy people who blame the government and simultaneously elect politicians who promise to solve the problem for them by handing out a gift-wrapped "american dream" that everyone feels they deserve. I see this kind of self-destructive philosophy/behavior every day, and I'm getting tired of it. It's always someone else's fault, yet it seems the "progressives" in our country keep shouting that the solution lies in more government involvement, forgetting that the only way we get decent jobs and favorable social and family conditions is by letting people fulfill their own dreams through hard work and less government intervention. The american dream isn't a gift - it's the idea that through blood, sweat, and tears, we can shape our own lives. From my perspective, the problem is a manifestation of a shift in popular ideals and a growing sense of entitlement.
- creshal 11y ago
  > the only way we get decent jobs and favorable social and family conditions is by letting people fulfill their own dreams through hard work and less government intervention We tried that during the industrial revolution. Didn't quite work out that way…
  - TeMPOraL 11y ago
    Indeed. It's ironic how the new generation forgets that their grandparents and their grandparents' grandparents fought and bled so that we may enjoy somewhat stable and abuse-free employment today. Entrepreneurs will always complain about government intervention and will always spin dreams of better future "if only we could get that pesky government out of the way", but the truth is this future will be delivered only to few, and the rest will pay in blood and tears. We've been there. Be careful what you wish for - you may actually get it.
  - curiousgeorgio 11y ago
    There's a role for government to play in ensuring public safety and transparency, in addition to providing national defense and perhaps a few fundamental infrastructure services. To function effectively in those areas, we don't need them trying to manage the finances of everyone, nor picking and choosing who should or shouldn't be deserving of tax breaks, subsidies, or any of the other countless benefit programs. When people are out of work or large classes of people are struggling to get by, it's because we haven't provided a suitable environment in which people can thrive (and yes, most people can and will thrive through their own action in a healthy environment), not because the government has somehow failed to give people enough prosperity. If it were a traditional business (without the ability to print money or use military force), the U.S. government would frankly be one of the most disastrous companies ever imagined - not just bankrupt (many times over), but mismanaged, fraudulent, and corrupt. A huge portion of our paychecks go to support this company today. And we want more of it?
Steko 11y ago
Turns out that voting against your own economic interests for a few decades has consequences.
- intopieces 11y ago
  I usually don't go in for snark but this is the hard truth that bears repeating. The same group that consistently derided the poor for being lazy and completely ignored their circumstances is now on the receiving end. The sad part is, I'm not sure this same group (which certainly includes my parents) will ever be cognizant of that irony. Essentially we've made the poor poorer so the middle class can feel superior to someone and ignore the fleecing they've been getting from the "job creators" who seem only to make jobs for overseas workers.
  - Steko 11y ago
    > I'm not sure this same group (which certainly includes my parents) will ever be cognizant of that irony. Sadly you may be right, Exhibit A being the reelection of Sam Brownback, destroyer of worlds. The plutocrats behind the GOP curtain seem to have an unending stream of reactionary social issues to mobilize these votes.
- crdoconnor 11y ago
  Turns out if both parties in a two party system are co-opted by oligarchs then it pretty much isn't possible to vote in favor of your own economic interests.
  - Steko 11y ago
    Turns out sometimes equivalence is false.
- pdeuchler 11y ago
  Yeah they should have never succumbed to the inundation of propaganda and withering force of constant social and economic pressure to tow the party line. Shame on those people for exerting their natural rights and trusting people who sold them out. I'm totally with you, the real people to blame here are the everyday rubes who knowingly gave power and money to a select few who always told the truth and never used traumatic events like 9/11 or economic collapses to consolidate power and wealth. All blame should exist on the stupid middle class who need to be controlled, patronized, and told what's best for them like 5 year old children.

mud_dauber 11y ago

As soon as I saw this comment, my first thought was "Holy crap. That sounds like Russia."

krasin 11y ago
It's indeed very similar to the description of the contemporary rural Russia (excluding the suburbs of Moscow, and few other large cities). There's one important difference: there's no free public health care in the US. Not that it's great in Russia, but the US has none. :(
- sologoub 11y ago
  That's not entirely true. Hospitals here are not allowed to turn away those in need, even if they have no insurance. The stays usually turn into uncollectible debts for the hospitals. With obamacare (Affordable Healthcare Act), the free options have been expanded quite a bit. In CA, the medi-cal is basically universally available to low income ($16,105 or under for 1 person, $21k or under for 2 person housefolds). For Russia, if really depends how lucky you get with the doctors or how much you can pay. For much of the system there, people would be better off if it didn't exist. Speaking from personal experience.
  - finance-geek 11y ago
    "The stays usually turn into uncollectible debts for the hospitals." --> "The stays turn into bankruptcy for the patients" Incidentally the leading cause of personal bankruptcy in the US is unpayable hospital bills. For those outside the US, here is how it works: a simple visit to the doctor for antibiotics (the ER, since that becomes your only option) turns into a $1200 bill.
    - sologoub 11y ago
      People in that situation rarely have assets that can be seized, so a bankruptcy is meaningless. You also missed that Obamacare really does take care of a large chunk of the problem, as flawed as it is. The paid options with large assistance (Silver plans) are also fairly affordable. I'm not familiar with non-CA options, but can't imagine them to be that much different from CA ones.
      - unprepare 11y ago
        >People in that situation rarely have assets that can be seized, so a bankruptcy is meaningless. Until they want to purchase a home, purchase a car, pass a credit check to get a job, get a credit card, get a loan, start a business, or get a cell phone. remember that a bankruptcy stays on your credit report for 7 years. I would say having a job and a home are far from 'meaningless'
    - ajuc 11y ago
      > a simple visit to the doctor for antibiotics (the ER, since that becomes your only option) turns into a $1200 bill. WOW. It's like $10-$20 in private clinic here. Or free if you want to wait for a few hours.
      - galfarragem 11y ago
        Living in East Europe and work in IT to an abroad company (aka getting a super inflationed sallary) is the sweet spot of sustainable life quality - nowadays is probably the best you can find in the world. Be thankful. What for do I want to receive 100K in the Bay area and pay an huge amount of money to get a decent house, health care, safety and schooling for my kids?
- briandear 11y ago
  Medicaid provides care for the poor. Thus the myth 'there is no free public healthcare' is false. Although technically, no care is free-- someone pays.
crdoconnor 11y ago
It isn't a coincidence. Post-1991 Russia and the US have shared some economic advisors (e.g. Larry Summers).

zipwitch 11y ago

Parts of the US are turning into Third World conditions. But don't tell the elite that. They're doing fine, and they have numbers that tell them how great everything is. Orwell meets pre-collapse USSR, with homages to a number of empires of yesteryear, overlaid with a Gilded Age veneer. Something with as much momentum as the United States will not peacefully come to a full stop. It may continue to slide to a slow halt, or explosively disassemble in some fashion.

zipwitch 11y ago

carsongross 11y ago

Ross Perot was right, and he was crucified for it.

mirimir 11y ago

Right. The US sold out its middle class to make peace with China, and isolate the USSR. And AI is coming. What will all the truckers do?

curiousgeorgio 11y ago

It's a sad state of affairs made worse by undereducated, lazy people who blame the government and simultaneously elect politicians who promise to solve the problem for them by handing out a gift-wrapped "american dream" that everyone feels they deserve. I see this kind of self-destructive philosophy/behavior every day, and I'm getting tired of it. It's always someone else's fault, yet it seems the "progressives" in our country keep shouting that the solution lies in more government involvement, forgetting that the only way we get decent jobs and favorable social and family conditions is by letting people fulfill their own dreams through hard work and less government intervention. The american dream isn't a gift - it's the idea that through blood, sweat, and tears, we can shape our own lives. From my perspective, the problem is a manifestation of a shift in popular ideals and a growing sense of entitlement.

creshal 11y ago
> the only way we get decent jobs and favorable social and family conditions is by letting people fulfill their own dreams through hard work and less government intervention We tried that during the industrial revolution. Didn't quite work out that way…
- TeMPOraL 11y ago
  Indeed. It's ironic how the new generation forgets that their grandparents and their grandparents' grandparents fought and bled so that we may enjoy somewhat stable and abuse-free employment today. Entrepreneurs will always complain about government intervention and will always spin dreams of better future "if only we could get that pesky government out of the way", but the truth is this future will be delivered only to few, and the rest will pay in blood and tears. We've been there. Be careful what you wish for - you may actually get it.
- curiousgeorgio 11y ago
  There's a role for government to play in ensuring public safety and transparency, in addition to providing national defense and perhaps a few fundamental infrastructure services. To function effectively in those areas, we don't need them trying to manage the finances of everyone, nor picking and choosing who should or shouldn't be deserving of tax breaks, subsidies, or any of the other countless benefit programs. When people are out of work or large classes of people are struggling to get by, it's because we haven't provided a suitable environment in which people can thrive (and yes, most people can and will thrive through their own action in a healthy environment), not because the government has somehow failed to give people enough prosperity. If it were a traditional business (without the ability to print money or use military force), the U.S. government would frankly be one of the most disastrous companies ever imagined - not just bankrupt (many times over), but mismanaged, fraudulent, and corrupt. A huge portion of our paychecks go to support this company today. And we want more of it?

Steko 11y ago

Turns out that voting against your own economic interests for a few decades has consequences.

intopieces 11y ago
I usually don't go in for snark but this is the hard truth that bears repeating. The same group that consistently derided the poor for being lazy and completely ignored their circumstances is now on the receiving end. The sad part is, I'm not sure this same group (which certainly includes my parents) will ever be cognizant of that irony. Essentially we've made the poor poorer so the middle class can feel superior to someone and ignore the fleecing they've been getting from the "job creators" who seem only to make jobs for overseas workers.
- Steko 11y ago
  > I'm not sure this same group (which certainly includes my parents) will ever be cognizant of that irony. Sadly you may be right, Exhibit A being the reelection of Sam Brownback, destroyer of worlds. The plutocrats behind the GOP curtain seem to have an unending stream of reactionary social issues to mobilize these votes.
crdoconnor 11y ago
Turns out if both parties in a two party system are co-opted by oligarchs then it pretty much isn't possible to vote in favor of your own economic interests.
- Steko 11y ago
  Turns out sometimes equivalence is false.
pdeuchler 11y ago
Yeah they should have never succumbed to the inundation of propaganda and withering force of constant social and economic pressure to tow the party line. Shame on those people for exerting their natural rights and trusting people who sold them out. I'm totally with you, the real people to blame here are the everyday rubes who knowingly gave power and money to a select few who always told the truth and never used traumatic events like 9/11 or economic collapses to consolidate power and wealth. All blame should exist on the stupid middle class who need to be controlled, patronized, and told what's best for them like 5 year old children.