7 ms·

The web is becoming unusable

16 points by byron_fast 11y ago

I am having more and more trouble visiting sites I read because of advertising-related browser problems. Many sites simply kill my computer; I can barely close a browser to escape. Is this a good business strategy?

rw2 11y ago
I think this is easily solved by adblock, have you tried it?
- byron_fast 11y ago
  No, because I like to experience the web as it is, which is what most users experience. Yes, it sucks, but that's why I use Windows, too. You can't identify with users if you don't visit their neighborhoods.
  - lazyjones 11y ago
    > No, because I like to experience the web as it is, which is what most users experience. Many users experience similar problems, so they are switching to ad blockers. Several sites reported 50%+ ad blocker usage, so if you're trying to view the web like other users, using ad blockers is probably fine now.
    - byron_fast 11y ago
      But what's the % for users who "Like" cat memes on Facebook? Less than 50.
      - beagle3 11y ago
        Why do you care?
        byron_fast 11y ago
        Because this is who users are. They will not ever visit Hacker News, and if they did, it might as well be in a foreign language. They will not install ad blockers. When the (insert your most hated Slavic/Asian country) mafia takes over their comp via a Facebook meme, they buy a new computer if they can afford it.
        beagle3 11y ago
        Let me rephrase yet. Are you a representative of the people in some way that requires you to make this great sacrifice? Do you give up your income because most of the users don't earn as much income? Do you give up your food because some people don't have as much food? Do you refuse to study because most people know less about subject matter X than you could know if you studied it?
  - beagle3 11y ago
    Would you rather identify with users (for whom the web is, indeed, becoming unbearable) or use the web? Unfortunately, it seems you can't do both at the same time.
mangeletti 11y ago
If you're a Firefox user, https://addons.mozilla.org/en-us/firefox/addon/ublock-origin/ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-us/firefox/addon/ublock-origin... If you're not a Firefox user, https://www.mozilla.org/firefox https://www.mozilla.org/firefox uBlock Origin exists for Chrome as well, but Google gets your lucky charms when you use Chrome, no matter what you configure to try to prevent it.
- byron_fast 11y ago
  Tell your grandma to install that. Then report back! Youtube Gold.
  - byron_fast 11y ago
    Sorry to downvoters: tell your "nona". This is who users are.
    - byron_fast 11y ago
      Why is this being downvoted.
      - MaysonL 11y ago
        Probably because it seems to be a snarky comment attached to a meaningful/useful comment, and adds little to the conversation. (Plus it isn't really very funny).
        byron_fast 11y ago
        It's not snarky, I'm trying to get the average HN to acknowledge reality: grandma is the average user, not you. You haven't got a clue how she sees the web, and sneering at her and downvoting her idiocy won't help.
    - switch007 11y ago
      It's spelt nonna.
bonobo3000 11y ago
Adblock/uBlock works great. If you want to experience the web as it is, then yeah I agree, it sucks. No one has really figured out how to monetize content without ads yet because people won't pay for it, so thats where we are.
- byron_fast 11y ago
  I'm sure Adblock works great. I'm interested in how the web works for people who don't care about technology, and it's a nightmare. Ad-supported software or web apps are a descending staircase of user-hate. People will pay for content - but that content needs to be worth paying for.
  - eevilspock 11y ago
    Byron and anyone else who agrees the web is kinda fucked: I'm working on spinning up a group or website where we can figure out where the web is broken, propose principles for a healthy web, and promote solutions by anyone or any company that adheres to those principles. Email me if you'd like to participate.
    - timdavila 11y ago
      Have you seen Maciej's "Six Fixes"? http://idlewords.com/six_fixes.htm http://idlewords.com/six_fixes.htm http://idlewords.com/talks/what_happens_next_will_amaze_you.htm http://idlewords.com/talks/what_happens_next_will_amaze_you....
  - njorth 11y ago
    You'd be lucky to find 1 in 1,000 to donate money out of kindness, even if you published an entire book on the Web and continued writing on matters of interest. http://practicaltypography.com/effluents-influence-affluence.html http://practicaltypography.com/effluents-influence-affluence...
- YeGoblynQueenne 11y ago
  An easy solution suggests itself: abolish money. Free the web.
byron_fast 11y ago
Just trying to read a news story at many sites feels like visiting a porn site in the '90s. Is that a good business strategy?
AnimalMuppet 11y ago
Try it not in the passive voice. "Badly-done advertising is making the web unusable." That's better, but it still makes it sound like inanimate things are causing it. "Advertisers are making the web unusable by trying ever-more-intrusive things to try to get us to pay attention." But even that is only half the story, because people want to get paid for the stuff that they put on the web. You know, the parts that you're actually going there to try to find. So either someone needs to figure out how to get more money out of ads, without the ads ruining the experience (and with users desperately trying to ignore the ads, because it's not what they came for), or the model needs to change. This will probably less top-quality free content on the web.
- Mz 11y ago
  The model can change: micheleincalifornia.blogspot.in/2015/11/surviving-and-thriving-amidst-adblocker.html
- byron_fast 11y ago
  Content has value, and creators should be paid. But ad-supported sites default to "the nightmare" because they are not tech-savvy: bad actors can use their ad-net to do bad things. The problem for news content is the same problem facing software: what if this stuff just isn't that valuable?
- eevilspock 11y ago
  Advertising underwrites the web. But who underwrites the underwriters? Us of course: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9961761 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9961761 If it is ad-supported it is not free: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7485773 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7485773 Advertising as a way to get paid for whatever it is you are offering people isn't very honest, a way around your product not being valuable enough that people will pay for it. If you make it feel like it is free, people will go "But if it is free, what the hell, why not?" What they do not know is you are taking more from them than if you charged them straight up.
  - threesixandnine 11y ago
http-teapot 11y ago
I'd recommend Ghostery; with it you can remove all kind of scripts that do not necessarily add value to the user experience. You quickly realize how much useless scripts are loaded in the page. You'll also realize that these scripts sometimes add other scripts to that page. For example, gizmodo.com filtered by Ghostery blocks 12 trackers. When it's disabled it detects 17 trackers. https://www.ghostery.com/ https://www.ghostery.com/
threesixandnine 11y ago
Clean up your computer today. I run Thinkpad T61 (old, old) + Debian 7 and have 20+ tabs open in Firefox and rarely I see issues you are describing. I have no adblocks or any other sh!t installed. I like to see ads and support people who are writing content. I know those ads are the only way they get compensated.
- byron_fast 11y ago
  I click ads to help out! But I wish the second fan in my computer wouldn't start up while viewing their site.
  - threesixandnine 11y ago
    Don't click ads just to help. Click them when you're ready to buy or if ads give you more info on the subject. Just to get more information. Can you tell me which sites are firing up your second fan?
    - byron_fast 11y ago
      I'd love to tell you - but that would reveal what I like, right? And I don't want you to judge me based on that. I do know that it's ad-network related; bad scripts have nothing to do with the sites that host them. They just don't do the due diligence - a 24/7 job - to prevent the problems.
      - YeGoblynQueenne 11y ago
        Upvoted for displaying perfectly reasonable paranoia.
njorth 11y ago
I follow a simple rule online: If a site's content doesn't load for me, then the site probably isn't worth visiting. My Firefox profile uses uMatrix, NoScript (scripts globally allowed), HTTPS Everywhere, and a good hosts file. Kills 99.9% of germs.
- byron_fast 11y ago
  Again: what about grandma? The whole point of these shitty sites is to parasitize the non-technical. Their web experience is like you taking your car to an evil garage: "There's silver flakes in your fluid. You need a new transmission."
  - njorth 11y ago
    It's moot. My family bought her an iPad before I could intervene.
    - byron_fast 11y ago
      I'd love to hear about an actual experience of granny using an iPad.
      - ZeroFries 11y ago
        My grandma usually calls me to find out how to send me an email.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
hehs 11y ago
it is time to change the paradigm of web and bring something completely new.
jakeogh 11y ago
Serious suggestion: disable JS. I use surf/tabbed (suckless.org) and it makes the web great again. If I really need JS for a tab, I hit CTRL-SHIFT-s. Also, consider local dns caching/filtering: https://github.com/jakeogh/dnsgate https://github.com/jakeogh/dnsgate I bet there are firefox extensions to make a hotkey to enable JS.
i336_ 11y ago
I've heard good things about uBlock Origin, but I don't use it myself; I instead use the MVPS Hosts File. Info page: http://winhelp2002.mvps.org/hosts.htm http://winhelp2002.mvps.org/hosts.htm Raw file: http://winhelp2002.mvps.org/hosts.txt http://winhelp2002.mvps.org/hosts.txt ZIP: http://winhelp2002.mvps.org/hosts.zip http://winhelp2002.mvps.org/hosts.zip It's periodically updated with the hostnames of all servers currently known to serve ads (almost all ad companies are locked to using hostnames, they for some/whatever reason don't use IPs). I see no ads. When I do, I redownload the file, and I'm all set again. It's great. This also blocks things like Google Analytics, which I personally appreciate too. If you want to track me, your web server has an access log somewhere, and if you want a second-by-second breakdown of my activity, distill a set of functions into your site's existing (hopefully well-optimized) JS codebase. Remember, there are things ad servers cannot do because they're pushing a product designed to serve millions of customers, not integrate with every single site architecture. I just thought of this, too - keep in mind that these are advertising companies we're talking about here. Their job is to sell product, and their second-layer job above that is to sell their own viability. I fear that our gullibility to being sold acid rainbows has started to go too far.
jack9 11y ago
> Many sites simply kill my computer; I can't even remember the last time a site did that, regularly or unintentionally with or without an adblock.
probablypat 11y ago
I can recommend Redmorph. It bundles everything that is in adblock/ublock and donottrack into one extension. Also comes with paid for proxy and VPN services if you're into that. https://redmorph.com/ https://redmorph.com/
buserror 11y ago
it's not just advertising anyway. What makes me close the tab is the popup with 'subscribe to our newsletter' (on my first visit) or other shit that is supposed to force me to click it, so that they can validate that I'm a human and not a bot.

16 points by byron_fast 11y ago

rw2 11y ago

I think this is easily solved by adblock, have you tried it?

byron_fast 11y ago
No, because I like to experience the web as it is, which is what most users experience. Yes, it sucks, but that's why I use Windows, too. You can't identify with users if you don't visit their neighborhoods.
- lazyjones 11y ago
  > No, because I like to experience the web as it is, which is what most users experience. Many users experience similar problems, so they are switching to ad blockers. Several sites reported 50%+ ad blocker usage, so if you're trying to view the web like other users, using ad blockers is probably fine now.
  - byron_fast 11y ago
    But what's the % for users who "Like" cat memes on Facebook? Less than 50.
    - beagle3 11y ago
      Why do you care?
      - byron_fast 11y ago
        Because this is who users are. They will not ever visit Hacker News, and if they did, it might as well be in a foreign language. They will not install ad blockers. When the (insert your most hated Slavic/Asian country) mafia takes over their comp via a Facebook meme, they buy a new computer if they can afford it.
        beagle3 11y ago
        Let me rephrase yet. Are you a representative of the people in some way that requires you to make this great sacrifice? Do you give up your income because most of the users don't earn as much income? Do you give up your food because some people don't have as much food? Do you refuse to study because most people know less about subject matter X than you could know if you studied it?
- beagle3 11y ago
  Would you rather identify with users (for whom the web is, indeed, becoming unbearable) or use the web? Unfortunately, it seems you can't do both at the same time.

mangeletti 11y ago

If you're a Firefox user, https://addons.mozilla.org/en-us/firefox/addon/ublock-origin/ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-us/firefox/addon/ublock-origin... If you're not a Firefox user, https://www.mozilla.org/firefox https://www.mozilla.org/firefox uBlock Origin exists for Chrome as well, but Google gets your lucky charms when you use Chrome, no matter what you configure to try to prevent it.

byron_fast 11y ago
Tell your grandma to install that. Then report back! Youtube Gold.
- byron_fast 11y ago
  Sorry to downvoters: tell your "nona". This is who users are.
  - byron_fast 11y ago
    Why is this being downvoted.
    - MaysonL 11y ago
      Probably because it seems to be a snarky comment attached to a meaningful/useful comment, and adds little to the conversation. (Plus it isn't really very funny).
      - byron_fast 11y ago
        It's not snarky, I'm trying to get the average HN to acknowledge reality: grandma is the average user, not you. You haven't got a clue how she sees the web, and sneering at her and downvoting her idiocy won't help.
  - switch007 11y ago
    It's spelt nonna.

bonobo3000 11y ago

Adblock/uBlock works great. If you want to experience the web as it is, then yeah I agree, it sucks. No one has really figured out how to monetize content without ads yet because people won't pay for it, so thats where we are.

byron_fast 11y ago
I'm sure Adblock works great. I'm interested in how the web works for people who don't care about technology, and it's a nightmare. Ad-supported software or web apps are a descending staircase of user-hate. People will pay for content - but that content needs to be worth paying for.
- eevilspock 11y ago
  Byron and anyone else who agrees the web is kinda fucked: I'm working on spinning up a group or website where we can figure out where the web is broken, propose principles for a healthy web, and promote solutions by anyone or any company that adheres to those principles. Email me if you'd like to participate.
  - timdavila 11y ago
    Have you seen Maciej's "Six Fixes"? http://idlewords.com/six_fixes.htm http://idlewords.com/six_fixes.htm http://idlewords.com/talks/what_happens_next_will_amaze_you.htm http://idlewords.com/talks/what_happens_next_will_amaze_you....
- njorth 11y ago
  You'd be lucky to find 1 in 1,000 to donate money out of kindness, even if you published an entire book on the Web and continued writing on matters of interest. http://practicaltypography.com/effluents-influence-affluence.html http://practicaltypography.com/effluents-influence-affluence...
YeGoblynQueenne 11y ago
An easy solution suggests itself: abolish money. Free the web.

byron_fast 11y ago

Just trying to read a news story at many sites feels like visiting a porn site in the '90s. Is that a good business strategy?

AnimalMuppet 11y ago

Try it not in the passive voice. "Badly-done advertising is making the web unusable." That's better, but it still makes it sound like inanimate things are causing it. "Advertisers are making the web unusable by trying ever-more-intrusive things to try to get us to pay attention." But even that is only half the story, because people want to get paid for the stuff that they put on the web. You know, the parts that you're actually going there to try to find. So either someone needs to figure out how to get more money out of ads, without the ads ruining the experience (and with users desperately trying to ignore the ads, because it's not what they came for), or the model needs to change. This will probably less top-quality free content on the web.

Mz 11y ago
The model can change: micheleincalifornia.blogspot.in/2015/11/surviving-and-thriving-amidst-adblocker.html
byron_fast 11y ago
Content has value, and creators should be paid. But ad-supported sites default to "the nightmare" because they are not tech-savvy: bad actors can use their ad-net to do bad things. The problem for news content is the same problem facing software: what if this stuff just isn't that valuable?
eevilspock 11y ago
Advertising underwrites the web. But who underwrites the underwriters? Us of course: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9961761 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9961761 If it is ad-supported it is not free: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7485773 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7485773 Advertising as a way to get paid for whatever it is you are offering people isn't very honest, a way around your product not being valuable enough that people will pay for it. If you make it feel like it is free, people will go "But if it is free, what the hell, why not?" What they do not know is you are taking more from them than if you charged them straight up.
- threesixandnine 11y ago

http-teapot 11y ago

I'd recommend Ghostery; with it you can remove all kind of scripts that do not necessarily add value to the user experience. You quickly realize how much useless scripts are loaded in the page. You'll also realize that these scripts sometimes add other scripts to that page. For example, gizmodo.com filtered by Ghostery blocks 12 trackers. When it's disabled it detects 17 trackers. https://www.ghostery.com/ https://www.ghostery.com/

threesixandnine 11y ago

Clean up your computer today. I run Thinkpad T61 (old, old) + Debian 7 and have 20+ tabs open in Firefox and rarely I see issues you are describing. I have no adblocks or any other sh!t installed. I like to see ads and support people who are writing content. I know those ads are the only way they get compensated.

byron_fast 11y ago
I click ads to help out! But I wish the second fan in my computer wouldn't start up while viewing their site.
- threesixandnine 11y ago
  Don't click ads just to help. Click them when you're ready to buy or if ads give you more info on the subject. Just to get more information. Can you tell me which sites are firing up your second fan?
  - byron_fast 11y ago
    I'd love to tell you - but that would reveal what I like, right? And I don't want you to judge me based on that. I do know that it's ad-network related; bad scripts have nothing to do with the sites that host them. They just don't do the due diligence - a 24/7 job - to prevent the problems.
    - YeGoblynQueenne 11y ago
      Upvoted for displaying perfectly reasonable paranoia.

njorth 11y ago

I follow a simple rule online: If a site's content doesn't load for me, then the site probably isn't worth visiting. My Firefox profile uses uMatrix, NoScript (scripts globally allowed), HTTPS Everywhere, and a good hosts file. Kills 99.9% of germs.

byron_fast 11y ago
Again: what about grandma? The whole point of these shitty sites is to parasitize the non-technical. Their web experience is like you taking your car to an evil garage: "There's silver flakes in your fluid. You need a new transmission."
- njorth 11y ago
  It's moot. My family bought her an iPad before I could intervene.
  - byron_fast 11y ago
    I'd love to hear about an actual experience of granny using an iPad.
    - ZeroFries 11y ago
      My grandma usually calls me to find out how to send me an email.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

hehs 11y ago

it is time to change the paradigm of web and bring something completely new.

jakeogh 11y ago

Serious suggestion: disable JS. I use surf/tabbed (suckless.org) and it makes the web great again. If I really need JS for a tab, I hit CTRL-SHIFT-s. Also, consider local dns caching/filtering: https://github.com/jakeogh/dnsgate https://github.com/jakeogh/dnsgate I bet there are firefox extensions to make a hotkey to enable JS.

i336_ 11y ago

I've heard good things about uBlock Origin, but I don't use it myself; I instead use the MVPS Hosts File. Info page: http://winhelp2002.mvps.org/hosts.htm http://winhelp2002.mvps.org/hosts.htm Raw file: http://winhelp2002.mvps.org/hosts.txt http://winhelp2002.mvps.org/hosts.txt ZIP: http://winhelp2002.mvps.org/hosts.zip http://winhelp2002.mvps.org/hosts.zip It's periodically updated with the hostnames of all servers currently known to serve ads (almost all ad companies are locked to using hostnames, they for some/whatever reason don't use IPs). I see no ads. When I do, I redownload the file, and I'm all set again. It's great. This also blocks things like Google Analytics, which I personally appreciate too. If you want to track me, your web server has an access log somewhere, and if you want a second-by-second breakdown of my activity, distill a set of functions into your site's existing (hopefully well-optimized) JS codebase. Remember, there are things ad servers cannot do because they're pushing a product designed to serve millions of customers, not integrate with every single site architecture. I just thought of this, too - keep in mind that these are advertising companies we're talking about here. Their job is to sell product, and their second-layer job above that is to sell their own viability. I fear that our gullibility to being sold acid rainbows has started to go too far.

jack9 11y ago

> Many sites simply kill my computer; I can't even remember the last time a site did that, regularly or unintentionally with or without an adblock.

probablypat 11y ago

I can recommend Redmorph. It bundles everything that is in adblock/ublock and donottrack into one extension. Also comes with paid for proxy and VPN services if you're into that. https://redmorph.com/ https://redmorph.com/

buserror 11y ago

it's not just advertising anyway. What makes me close the tab is the popup with 'subscribe to our newsletter' (on my first visit) or other shit that is supposed to force me to click it, so that they can validate that I'm a human and not a bot.