6 ms·

Until something goes wrong. Like if they can't read the tiny font in the file menu. Then they google it, and discover they need to "sudo apt-get install unity-

Until something goes wrong. Like if they can't read the tiny font in the file menu. Then they google it, and discover they need to "sudo apt-get install unity-tweak-tool." Then they manage to actually find a terminal window and run the command, and install the tool, and turn up every available font rendering option, and it still doesn't solve their problem. That is just one real world example. Linux is an operating system used and built primarily by people who are willing to put up with a little bit of crap to get 99% of what they want, and live with the rest. Imagine if Windows or OSX required you to open a terminal and install a third party lib to increase your font size. People would call them insane. Just to be clear: I use a linux desktop every day. I love it and it would require a substantial increase in compensation for me to switch back to a Windows machine. But saying that computer illiterate/naive workforce can switch operating systems with no retraining costs is demonstrably false.

infinity0 11y ago
How's that different from Windows? Instead of opening a terminal, I double click?
- mikeryan 11y ago
  My neighbor, son, daughter, friend, mailman all probably can provide an answer?
  - infinity0 11y ago
    Please, do provide an answer. And I mean a real answer of real things they actually did, that is comparable on Windows and Linux, as opposed to marketing crap someone else told them about that they then mis-stored in their own heads as false memories. My experience is that there is no substantial difference in the amount of "fucking around" you have to do with Windows or Linux. I had to install custom graphics drivers from third party sites, install custom keyboards, mess around with random settings, especially after upgrades between different OS versions. Please show me an actual study instead of talking about personal anecdotes.
    - dangerlibrary 11y ago
      You have provided personal anecdotes to support your position and demanded "actual studies" to refute your position. I do not think you are truly interested in changing your mind.
      - infinity0 11y ago
        I provided personal anecdotes in response to other personal anecdotes. The point is to show that these types of arguments are flawed - of course I won't change my mind in response to others' anecdotes, when my own are different - will you?
  - zanny 11y ago
    I do IT support in the small town I live in. I always advocate Kubuntu / Ubuntu / Gnome (I just throw them at it for 10 mins each and whichever one they like most they get) and they are no more capable of fixing something wrong with their computer on those distros than on Windows. But at least I can ssh into their rigs after the fact and fix them remotely. Trying to get them running teamviewer every time there is a problem on Windows is a nightmare. Also consider the #1 reason I get called is because people install some virus or spyware or clickjacker by clicking and running random stuff off the Internet. On any Linux based distro none of that stuff works so what ends up happening is my repeat customers every 2-4 months are Windows users and the dozen or so clients I have using some flavor of Ubuntu might email me once a year like "can I run X?" and I just go look on playonlinux if its supported or not. Libreoffice opens all the old Doc and XLS files fine, their printers work, their wifi works, they can use their crappy 1995 webmail client from their ISP no problem, and they even get neat perks like having their phone rings show up in their desktop notifications if they use KDEConnect.
- dangerlibrary 11y ago
  I believe you can simply zoom, using ctrl-+ or ctrl-scroll wheel. It's a common pattern that works across applications in windows and OSX, but for whatever reason isn't implemented in the file menu of Ubuntu systems. Maybe for open-source-y political reasons or maybe because component X of Y system included in the file menu already uses that shortcut. It doesn't matter - the existing knowledge of how to zoom in is useless, and you're stuck figuring out the new system. Again, it's just one example. Others are far worse: try to figure out how to play a song or some other audio into a skype call by piping data directly into the mic input channel. It's pretty trivial in windows, and there are third party tools with easy to understand GUIs if you can't figure it out on your own. On Linux you'll be futzing with jackd configs for hours.
  - infinity0 11y ago
    In many FOSS applications ctrl -/+ works too. I've had to mess around with audio and video on Windows too, it's not pretty. It definitely does not "just work". I've never needed to pipe data into a mic input channel on Linux. These days one probably wants "pavucontrol". I don't like arbitrarily changing UX either, but it's not like Windows doesn't have that problem. I had massive switching headaches moving to the new "ribbon" based stuff in Microsoft Office. Of course neither side is perfect, but I am thoroughly unconvinced by the "unusable" argument. THere are definitely biases with ignoring the headaches that Windows forces upon users.
    - dangerlibrary 11y ago
      Nobody in this thread said that linux is unusable.
  - JupiterMoon 11y ago
    OK I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt an assume you don't use Linux much... But both of your examples are not accurate. For your first example ctrl double swipe on my trackpad works pretty much everywhere and ctrl +/- works everywhere except my terminal where ctrl-shift +/- does the job. As for your second. This is not a common use case that any non-technical person would even think of trying. If you needed to I would suggest ignoring jackd (whatever that is) and using the gui for pulse audio control.
superskierpat 11y ago
Honestly, how many of them do you actually expect to be able to fix the problem on windows? They just call the it guy.
- forinti 11y ago
  Exactly! A friend of mine was afraid he wouldn't know how to configure wifi on Linux. I pointed out that he couldn't configure it on Windows either.
zxcvcxz 11y ago
What I find strange is that no one ever has to be trained to use a smartphone. >discover they need to "sudo apt-get install unity-tweak-tool." This is disingenuous, they would just install it through the app store like on a phone.
RobertoG 11y ago
People get use to Ubuntu very fast. In my experience, the big problem in organizations are legacy documents and formats. Especially Excel. LibreOffice is good but it's not going to run the macros that were created 10 years ago by guys that are now retired in some beach. The other big problem is specialized software (already amortized) that only run in Windows. The funny thing is that kind of problems happens even between different versions of windows.
- swayvil 11y ago
  Ditto. Legacy documents and formats.
swayvil 11y ago
Yes, I address my Linux using clients' issues for them. But it's the same with my clients who use Windows too. They can't fix it for themselves either. In fact, I see about 5 times as many Windows issues as Linux issues. And it's easier to fix a Linux machine. This story that you are telling about how Windows is easy and Linux is hard, and about how there will be this big transition cost, is just bs.

infinity0 11y ago

How's that different from Windows? Instead of opening a terminal, I double click?

mikeryan 11y ago
My neighbor, son, daughter, friend, mailman all probably can provide an answer?
- infinity0 11y ago
  Please, do provide an answer. And I mean a real answer of real things they actually did, that is comparable on Windows and Linux, as opposed to marketing crap someone else told them about that they then mis-stored in their own heads as false memories. My experience is that there is no substantial difference in the amount of "fucking around" you have to do with Windows or Linux. I had to install custom graphics drivers from third party sites, install custom keyboards, mess around with random settings, especially after upgrades between different OS versions. Please show me an actual study instead of talking about personal anecdotes.
  - dangerlibrary 11y ago
    You have provided personal anecdotes to support your position and demanded "actual studies" to refute your position. I do not think you are truly interested in changing your mind.
    - infinity0 11y ago
      I provided personal anecdotes in response to other personal anecdotes. The point is to show that these types of arguments are flawed - of course I won't change my mind in response to others' anecdotes, when my own are different - will you?
- zanny 11y ago
  I do IT support in the small town I live in. I always advocate Kubuntu / Ubuntu / Gnome (I just throw them at it for 10 mins each and whichever one they like most they get) and they are no more capable of fixing something wrong with their computer on those distros than on Windows. But at least I can ssh into their rigs after the fact and fix them remotely. Trying to get them running teamviewer every time there is a problem on Windows is a nightmare. Also consider the #1 reason I get called is because people install some virus or spyware or clickjacker by clicking and running random stuff off the Internet. On any Linux based distro none of that stuff works so what ends up happening is my repeat customers every 2-4 months are Windows users and the dozen or so clients I have using some flavor of Ubuntu might email me once a year like "can I run X?" and I just go look on playonlinux if its supported or not. Libreoffice opens all the old Doc and XLS files fine, their printers work, their wifi works, they can use their crappy 1995 webmail client from their ISP no problem, and they even get neat perks like having their phone rings show up in their desktop notifications if they use KDEConnect.
dangerlibrary 11y ago
I believe you can simply zoom, using ctrl-+ or ctrl-scroll wheel. It's a common pattern that works across applications in windows and OSX, but for whatever reason isn't implemented in the file menu of Ubuntu systems. Maybe for open-source-y political reasons or maybe because component X of Y system included in the file menu already uses that shortcut. It doesn't matter - the existing knowledge of how to zoom in is useless, and you're stuck figuring out the new system. Again, it's just one example. Others are far worse: try to figure out how to play a song or some other audio into a skype call by piping data directly into the mic input channel. It's pretty trivial in windows, and there are third party tools with easy to understand GUIs if you can't figure it out on your own. On Linux you'll be futzing with jackd configs for hours.
- infinity0 11y ago
  In many FOSS applications ctrl -/+ works too. I've had to mess around with audio and video on Windows too, it's not pretty. It definitely does not "just work". I've never needed to pipe data into a mic input channel on Linux. These days one probably wants "pavucontrol". I don't like arbitrarily changing UX either, but it's not like Windows doesn't have that problem. I had massive switching headaches moving to the new "ribbon" based stuff in Microsoft Office. Of course neither side is perfect, but I am thoroughly unconvinced by the "unusable" argument. THere are definitely biases with ignoring the headaches that Windows forces upon users.
  - dangerlibrary 11y ago
    Nobody in this thread said that linux is unusable.
- JupiterMoon 11y ago
  OK I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt an assume you don't use Linux much... But both of your examples are not accurate. For your first example ctrl double swipe on my trackpad works pretty much everywhere and ctrl +/- works everywhere except my terminal where ctrl-shift +/- does the job. As for your second. This is not a common use case that any non-technical person would even think of trying. If you needed to I would suggest ignoring jackd (whatever that is) and using the gui for pulse audio control.

superskierpat 11y ago

Honestly, how many of them do you actually expect to be able to fix the problem on windows? They just call the it guy.

forinti 11y ago
Exactly! A friend of mine was afraid he wouldn't know how to configure wifi on Linux. I pointed out that he couldn't configure it on Windows either.

zxcvcxz 11y ago

What I find strange is that no one ever has to be trained to use a smartphone. >discover they need to "sudo apt-get install unity-tweak-tool." This is disingenuous, they would just install it through the app store like on a phone.

RobertoG 11y ago

People get use to Ubuntu very fast. In my experience, the big problem in organizations are legacy documents and formats. Especially Excel. LibreOffice is good but it's not going to run the macros that were created 10 years ago by guys that are now retired in some beach. The other big problem is specialized software (already amortized) that only run in Windows. The funny thing is that kind of problems happens even between different versions of windows.

swayvil 11y ago
Ditto. Legacy documents and formats.

swayvil 11y ago

Yes, I address my Linux using clients' issues for them. But it's the same with my clients who use Windows too. They can't fix it for themselves either. In fact, I see about 5 times as many Windows issues as Linux issues. And it's easier to fix a Linux machine. This story that you are telling about how Windows is easy and Linux is hard, and about how there will be this big transition cost, is just bs.