4 ms·

Linus Torvalds fires off angry 'compiler-masturbation' rant

26 points by amlgsmsn 11y ago

lobster_johnson 11y ago
Original ML mail: http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1510.3/02866.html http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1510.3/02866.html Someone rewrote the rant in polite English: http://catcode.com/comments/2015/cf20151101.html http://catcode.com/comments/2015/cf20151101.html
- cromwellian 11y ago
  It's like the reverse of Lester, Obama's anger management translator.
- luso_brazilian 11y ago
  Although the polite version is semantically identical the syntax of the message in many cases as important as the message itself. Much of what makes human communication universally intelligible across cultures and languages like tone of voice or body language is lost in writing and the human tendency is to replace it with similar substitutes as it helps to convey meta-information that would be hard to convey otherwise. I believe if one would analyze every single email sent by Linux to the list the great majority of them would have similar syntax to the polite English above but, of course, those wouldn't make the news. The bitter rants seem to be reserved to the cases where it is imperative that everybody, involved or not, understand very clearly why that behaviour is not tolerable and the reason for that. Similar cases like the refusal to merge Kay Sievers further submissions [1] until he cleaned up and owned up to his mistakes or the reprieve of a maintainer [2] that broke userland with a kernel commit seems to follow the same pattern. The difference to a professional setting is that, in person in a company, one can always call a closed doors meeting and express with tone of voice and body language the same message without the public spectacle. Even in those cases, specially when everybody knows what it mean to be called to the boss presence, it can be as embarrassing and intimidating as what happens in those forums. [1] http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1404.0/01331.html http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1404.0/01331.html [2] https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/12/23/75 https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/12/23/75
  - JoeAltmaier 11y ago
    At some point, will we stop making excuses for this guy? Because the rest of us manage to communicate without constantly offending.
    - Mikushi 11y ago
      Offense is taken not given. While Linus can be exceedingly colourful at times I for one don't find it offensive. Moreover you, and I, can't fathom the amount of times he probably had in depth discussions on various kernel topics, by now he probably knows that sometimes being abrasive is the only way to get message across.
      - malandrew 11y ago
        Exactly. Relevant SBMC comic: http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2164 http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2164
  - moomin 11y ago
    Yep, there's definitely a different message that comes across. Mostly one about how Linus Torvalds can abuse anyone he damn well feels like without repercussion.
toothbrush 11y ago
I really find it a poor show, Linus running his mouth like that, and all the others scurrying to reply deferentially and civilly to his adolescent rant (whether he is technically right or not, which doesn't even seem clear from the follow-up mails). IMHO, it's not the way to build an inclusive community, and it's not the way to encourage newcomers (who may be unfamiliar with your coding practices but could have useful expertise in their own right). Really, i long for the "coolness" and "macho" around the Linux project to die. It's doing free software everywhere a disservice thanks to the project's high visibility. Maybe this makes me a wuss or whatever (i freely admit to being extremely non-confrontational), but it'd be nice if people of all cultures and communication styles would be welcomed as volunteers to great libre software projects such as these. EDIT: I wonder if it would help if news sites would be more critical of such outbursts? This article seems to remain relatively neutral, but perhaps public condemnation of emotional outbursts would help towards taking the glamour out of it. I wonder if it'd also help stop "hero-worshipping" emulation of such behaviour.
- tdkl 11y ago
  I'll take a brutal honest man like Linus any day before a smooth talking bullshiter. At least he'll stand up by his words with responsibility and without excuses. Compared to professional liars who brought mass murder, civil wars and refugee crisis in the last decade to the middle east, admitting them later and still walking the Earth without trials, I'd say the news sites can leave their critique from Linus and give some more focus somewhere else.
  - cafard 11y ago
    So, do I get a free pass on parking tickets until your rogues gallery shows up for prosecution in The Hague?
  - toothbrush 11y ago
    That's a pretty serious straw man you've set up. There isn't a single-axis spectrum of characters ranging from smooth-talking bullshitters to straight-talking foul-mouthed Linuses (sp?). The fact of the matter is that one can just as easily be a brash and insulting bullshitter, or a friendly and polite straight-talker. I am strongly in favour of the latter: it is more inclusive and comes off as a lot less macho and/or insecure.
bra-ket 11y ago
brilliant
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
rurban 11y ago
Eventually Linux will find out that those new overflow functions produce better ASM code by checking the overflag FLAG. This is in HW, use it, and don't fallback to inline assembly. jo +2 is much better than the previous code, even if the C function looks insane, yes. I agree with that. I also replaced all our crazy manual overflow checks with these new builtins, and with mult and signed add/sub it made it much faster and easier to read. The uadd/usub cases are indeed quirky, but at least consistent. Summary: Linus is way off here.
beagle3 11y ago
I urge all the people who haven't to actually read the mailing list post (link [0] from lobster_johnson), and note that (from the register article): """ The rant is entirely impersonal: it rails against code, not people. Those who contributed the offending code will have no doubt of Torvalds' feelings towards it and the open nature of kernel development means it would not be hard to identify those responsible. Torvalds names no names, however. """ Linus is passionate about what he does, and as he has explained several times before, the reach and the medium make him easily misunderstood if he is all polite and politically correct, so he makes sure there is no way he is misunderstood. Let me ask you this - after this issue, does anyone here think Linus will be willing to accept the usub()/uadd() calls into the kernel any time soon? Had Linus answered politely and politically correct, he would have had to do that about ten times as much, because (a) other people wouldn't notice or think that this response doesn't apply to their special snowflake code, and (b) those who know it applies to would feel that there is room for discussion. Linus is herding cats without paying them, and has been doing this amazingly well for over 20 years now. Whether or not you subscribe to it, his management style works, produces amazing results. At the scale that linus manages, you (probably) have to be dictator, and (likely) cannot be a polite one. [0] http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1510.3/02866.html http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1510.3/02866.html
- hamburglar 11y ago
  Personally, I think Linus can be a crotchety old bastard all he wants and people can take it or leave it. Kernel development isn't supposed to be an all-inclusive club where everyone gets a big welcome hug. That said, this "it rails against code, not people" stuff I keep hearing as justification is a complete bullshit cop-out. When Linus calls your code "complete idiotic crap", "compiler-masturbation", and says "I don't ever want to see that shit again," these are not merely attacks on code. If he's calling your code idiotic crap, he's calling you an idiot. If he's calling your code masturbatory, he's accusing you of compiler-masturbation. Trying to dismiss it as "attacking the code" just opens the door for pretty much any level of unprofessional abuse as long as it's couched in terms that make it technically "about the code."

26 points by amlgsmsn 11y ago

Original ML mail: http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1510.3/02866.html http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1510.3/02866.html Someone rewrote the rant in polite English: http://catcode.com/comments/2015/cf20151101.html http://catcode.com/comments/2015/cf20151101.html

cromwellian 11y ago
It's like the reverse of Lester, Obama's anger management translator.
luso_brazilian 11y ago
Although the polite version is semantically identical the syntax of the message in many cases as important as the message itself. Much of what makes human communication universally intelligible across cultures and languages like tone of voice or body language is lost in writing and the human tendency is to replace it with similar substitutes as it helps to convey meta-information that would be hard to convey otherwise. I believe if one would analyze every single email sent by Linux to the list the great majority of them would have similar syntax to the polite English above but, of course, those wouldn't make the news. The bitter rants seem to be reserved to the cases where it is imperative that everybody, involved or not, understand very clearly why that behaviour is not tolerable and the reason for that. Similar cases like the refusal to merge Kay Sievers further submissions [1] until he cleaned up and owned up to his mistakes or the reprieve of a maintainer [2] that broke userland with a kernel commit seems to follow the same pattern. The difference to a professional setting is that, in person in a company, one can always call a closed doors meeting and express with tone of voice and body language the same message without the public spectacle. Even in those cases, specially when everybody knows what it mean to be called to the boss presence, it can be as embarrassing and intimidating as what happens in those forums. [1] http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1404.0/01331.html http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1404.0/01331.html [2] https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/12/23/75 https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/12/23/75
- JoeAltmaier 11y ago
  At some point, will we stop making excuses for this guy? Because the rest of us manage to communicate without constantly offending.
  - Mikushi 11y ago
    Offense is taken not given. While Linus can be exceedingly colourful at times I for one don't find it offensive. Moreover you, and I, can't fathom the amount of times he probably had in depth discussions on various kernel topics, by now he probably knows that sometimes being abrasive is the only way to get message across.
    - malandrew 11y ago
      Exactly. Relevant SBMC comic: http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2164 http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2164
- moomin 11y ago
  Yep, there's definitely a different message that comes across. Mostly one about how Linus Torvalds can abuse anyone he damn well feels like without repercussion.

toothbrush 11y ago

I really find it a poor show, Linus running his mouth like that, and all the others scurrying to reply deferentially and civilly to his adolescent rant (whether he is technically right or not, which doesn't even seem clear from the follow-up mails). IMHO, it's not the way to build an inclusive community, and it's not the way to encourage newcomers (who may be unfamiliar with your coding practices but could have useful expertise in their own right). Really, i long for the "coolness" and "macho" around the Linux project to die. It's doing free software everywhere a disservice thanks to the project's high visibility. Maybe this makes me a wuss or whatever (i freely admit to being extremely non-confrontational), but it'd be nice if people of all cultures and communication styles would be welcomed as volunteers to great libre software projects such as these. EDIT: I wonder if it would help if news sites would be more critical of such outbursts? This article seems to remain relatively neutral, but perhaps public condemnation of emotional outbursts would help towards taking the glamour out of it. I wonder if it'd also help stop "hero-worshipping" emulation of such behaviour.

tdkl 11y ago
I'll take a brutal honest man like Linus any day before a smooth talking bullshiter. At least he'll stand up by his words with responsibility and without excuses. Compared to professional liars who brought mass murder, civil wars and refugee crisis in the last decade to the middle east, admitting them later and still walking the Earth without trials, I'd say the news sites can leave their critique from Linus and give some more focus somewhere else.
- cafard 11y ago
  So, do I get a free pass on parking tickets until your rogues gallery shows up for prosecution in The Hague?
- toothbrush 11y ago
  That's a pretty serious straw man you've set up. There isn't a single-axis spectrum of characters ranging from smooth-talking bullshitters to straight-talking foul-mouthed Linuses (sp?). The fact of the matter is that one can just as easily be a brash and insulting bullshitter, or a friendly and polite straight-talker. I am strongly in favour of the latter: it is more inclusive and comes off as a lot less macho and/or insecure.

bra-ket 11y ago

brilliant

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

rurban 11y ago

Eventually Linux will find out that those new overflow functions produce better ASM code by checking the overflag FLAG. This is in HW, use it, and don't fallback to inline assembly. jo +2 is much better than the previous code, even if the C function looks insane, yes. I agree with that. I also replaced all our crazy manual overflow checks with these new builtins, and with mult and signed add/sub it made it much faster and easier to read. The uadd/usub cases are indeed quirky, but at least consistent. Summary: Linus is way off here.

beagle3 11y ago

I urge all the people who haven't to actually read the mailing list post (link [0] from lobster_johnson), and note that (from the register article): """ The rant is entirely impersonal: it rails against code, not people. Those who contributed the offending code will have no doubt of Torvalds' feelings towards it and the open nature of kernel development means it would not be hard to identify those responsible. Torvalds names no names, however. """ Linus is passionate about what he does, and as he has explained several times before, the reach and the medium make him easily misunderstood if he is all polite and politically correct, so he makes sure there is no way he is misunderstood. Let me ask you this - after this issue, does anyone here think Linus will be willing to accept the usub()/uadd() calls into the kernel any time soon? Had Linus answered politely and politically correct, he would have had to do that about ten times as much, because (a) other people wouldn't notice or think that this response doesn't apply to their special snowflake code, and (b) those who know it applies to would feel that there is room for discussion. Linus is herding cats without paying them, and has been doing this amazingly well for over 20 years now. Whether or not you subscribe to it, his management style works, produces amazing results. At the scale that linus manages, you (probably) have to be dictator, and (likely) cannot be a polite one. [0] http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1510.3/02866.html http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1510.3/02866.html

hamburglar 11y ago
Personally, I think Linus can be a crotchety old bastard all he wants and people can take it or leave it. Kernel development isn't supposed to be an all-inclusive club where everyone gets a big welcome hug. That said, this "it rails against code, not people" stuff I keep hearing as justification is a complete bullshit cop-out. When Linus calls your code "complete idiotic crap", "compiler-masturbation", and says "I don't ever want to see that shit again," these are not merely attacks on code. If he's calling your code idiotic crap, he's calling you an idiot. If he's calling your code masturbatory, he's accusing you of compiler-masturbation. Trying to dismiss it as "attacking the code" just opens the door for pretty much any level of unprofessional abuse as long as it's couched in terms that make it technically "about the code."