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> I am so proud of Google right now. I am too, but I think we should remember that China's citizens were and still are being censored, killed, and tortured on

> I am so proud of Google right now. I am too, but I think we should remember that China's citizens were and still are being censored, killed, and tortured on a daily basis. Google was fine doing business with them and even assisting in their censorship. Only until Google found itself on the receiving end of China's baton did it finally decide to change their relationship. They deserve kudos and a pat on the back for realizing that it's not good to bow down and comply with a government that tortures and locks up its citizens for speaking their minds, but they don't deserve any sort of hero worship.

codexon 17y ago
I agree with all of what you've said. The skeptic in me thinks that Google is using this attack as an excuse to offset the PR disaster when Schmidt said the if you have something to hide maybe you shouldn't be doing it speech.
- andreyf 17y ago
  Google is using this attack as an excuse to offset the PR disaster when Schmidt said the if you have something to hide maybe you shouldn't be doing it speech. That's just insane... do you really think the two are comprable? Google would lose more customers by withdrawing from China than people who know, much less care in the least, about that quote...
  - codexon 17y ago
    That's just insane... do you really think the two are comprable? 1. Google is not withdrawing from China. They are merely deciding not to implement additional censoring measures to curry additional favor with the government. 2. They have been losing market share to an inferior but government approved search engine Baidu. Why do you think Google China's Kai-fu Lee left after a few years in his highest position to make a relatively small startup when his track record shows he prefers large corporations like Apple, SGI, and Microsoft? Google knows they are losing ground and he was probably abandoning the sinking ship. Another year of lost market share to government supported Baidu and the recent espionage was the last straw for Google to know that their current methods weren't working. 3. Why are you comparing them then? It's not like Google decided to make this happen so they could publicly denounce the Chinese government. Considering their past practices with China, I would have expected them to keep silent on the matter. I don't think it's unreasonable to think that the Schmidt incident influenced the scale of their reaction. If you think Schmidt's quote did not make a big impact , that's your opinion, not fact.
    - mschwar99 17y ago
      I think you are probably partially correct in the sense that a company as large as Google is not comprised of one single personality. The decision making voices in Google could well run the spectrum from those advocating a moral line in the sand all the way to those bottom liners that were convinced that an action like this could well have enough PR upside to offset any potential losses in the Chinese market.
    - dutchflyboy 17y ago
      Please read the article to the end: "We have decided we are no longer willing to continue censoring our results on Google.cn, and so over the next few weeks we will be discussing with the Chinese government the basis on which we could operate an unfiltered search engine within the law, if at all. We recognize that this may well mean having to shut down Google.cn, and potentially our offices in China.". So no, they aren't willing to censor more. Wether they have more market share is an entirely different matter. It's about the decision to pull out of China. This could be the right or the wrong decision, only the future knows, but the decision has a big symbolic significance, that's what everyone is astonished about.
      - codexon 17y ago
        I did read the article to the end, and I find no fault with what I said. They haven't decided to pull out completely from China yet. They simply said they might, and their main focus was to stop censoring as much as they can "within the law". I am really surprised that you have been voted so highly as though you and many other readers here mistakenly interpreted this as an absolute sign that Google is going to withdraw from China.
        Maktab 17y ago
        Your interpretation is incorrect. Google have quite clearly stated that they are no longer willing to accept any censorship of their search results on Google.cn and that they are prepared to shut down their operations in China if it's not possible to legally run Google.cn without filters. As it seems unlikely that the Chinese government will permit Google to operate such an unfiltered search engine, Google is effectively announcing its exit from the Chinese market.
- ThinkWriteMute 17y ago
  Except that's not what he said, so...
sliverstorm 17y ago
> Only until Google found itself on the receiving end of China's baton did it finally decide to change their relationship. Maybe Google is lying to us, but what they were saying is originally it was 'well, even if censored, we can still be a positive factor'. Now they are saying, 'our presence is being abused by the gov't. We are now a negative factor'. I'm sure they aren't giddy about getting hacked, but if not getting hacked was their primary goal, I doubt complete withdraw from China would be move #1
gommm 17y ago
I don't remember an instance of Google responding to the Chinese government request of information. They did follow the government guideline and censored their results but that's a very minor problem compared to the good Google did by just giving access to better english based information than Baidu for example. All of this is not question of black and white and I respect Google a lot more than Yahoo based on the way they behave (Yahoo did help directly to the arrest of a political activist in China see: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/19/technology/19yahoo.html http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/19/technology/19yahoo.html)
karam 17y ago
I love that they made this announcement via a press release on their blog and not an 'exclusive interview' with a specific news outlet.

codexon 17y ago

I agree with all of what you've said. The skeptic in me thinks that Google is using this attack as an excuse to offset the PR disaster when Schmidt said the if you have something to hide maybe you shouldn't be doing it speech.

andreyf 17y ago
Google is using this attack as an excuse to offset the PR disaster when Schmidt said the if you have something to hide maybe you shouldn't be doing it speech. That's just insane... do you really think the two are comprable? Google would lose more customers by withdrawing from China than people who know, much less care in the least, about that quote...
- codexon 17y ago
  That's just insane... do you really think the two are comprable? 1. Google is not withdrawing from China. They are merely deciding not to implement additional censoring measures to curry additional favor with the government. 2. They have been losing market share to an inferior but government approved search engine Baidu. Why do you think Google China's Kai-fu Lee left after a few years in his highest position to make a relatively small startup when his track record shows he prefers large corporations like Apple, SGI, and Microsoft? Google knows they are losing ground and he was probably abandoning the sinking ship. Another year of lost market share to government supported Baidu and the recent espionage was the last straw for Google to know that their current methods weren't working. 3. Why are you comparing them then? It's not like Google decided to make this happen so they could publicly denounce the Chinese government. Considering their past practices with China, I would have expected them to keep silent on the matter. I don't think it's unreasonable to think that the Schmidt incident influenced the scale of their reaction. If you think Schmidt's quote did not make a big impact , that's your opinion, not fact.
  - mschwar99 17y ago
    I think you are probably partially correct in the sense that a company as large as Google is not comprised of one single personality. The decision making voices in Google could well run the spectrum from those advocating a moral line in the sand all the way to those bottom liners that were convinced that an action like this could well have enough PR upside to offset any potential losses in the Chinese market.
  - dutchflyboy 17y ago
    Please read the article to the end: "We have decided we are no longer willing to continue censoring our results on Google.cn, and so over the next few weeks we will be discussing with the Chinese government the basis on which we could operate an unfiltered search engine within the law, if at all. We recognize that this may well mean having to shut down Google.cn, and potentially our offices in China.". So no, they aren't willing to censor more. Wether they have more market share is an entirely different matter. It's about the decision to pull out of China. This could be the right or the wrong decision, only the future knows, but the decision has a big symbolic significance, that's what everyone is astonished about.
    - codexon 17y ago
      I did read the article to the end, and I find no fault with what I said. They haven't decided to pull out completely from China yet. They simply said they might, and their main focus was to stop censoring as much as they can "within the law". I am really surprised that you have been voted so highly as though you and many other readers here mistakenly interpreted this as an absolute sign that Google is going to withdraw from China.
      - Maktab 17y ago
        Your interpretation is incorrect. Google have quite clearly stated that they are no longer willing to accept any censorship of their search results on Google.cn and that they are prepared to shut down their operations in China if it's not possible to legally run Google.cn without filters. As it seems unlikely that the Chinese government will permit Google to operate such an unfiltered search engine, Google is effectively announcing its exit from the Chinese market.
ThinkWriteMute 17y ago
Except that's not what he said, so...

sliverstorm 17y ago

> Only until Google found itself on the receiving end of China's baton did it finally decide to change their relationship. Maybe Google is lying to us, but what they were saying is originally it was 'well, even if censored, we can still be a positive factor'. Now they are saying, 'our presence is being abused by the gov't. We are now a negative factor'. I'm sure they aren't giddy about getting hacked, but if not getting hacked was their primary goal, I doubt complete withdraw from China would be move #1

gommm 17y ago

I don't remember an instance of Google responding to the Chinese government request of information. They did follow the government guideline and censored their results but that's a very minor problem compared to the good Google did by just giving access to better english based information than Baidu for example. All of this is not question of black and white and I respect Google a lot more than Yahoo based on the way they behave (Yahoo did help directly to the arrest of a political activist in China see: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/19/technology/19yahoo.html http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/19/technology/19yahoo.html)

karam 17y ago

I love that they made this announcement via a press release on their blog and not an 'exclusive interview' with a specific news outlet.