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Sometimes they keep it very quiet: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal No, se

by flexie 11y ago

Sometimes they keep it very quiet: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal No, seriously. All these statements about German character or German mentality should stop. If the last few months haven't taught us anything else, at least it should have taught us that. First, Germans and the German government were praised as reliable in connection with the Grexit (as opposed to the Greeks), then a few months later, a German government owned car producers is caught in what might be the biggest corporate fraud ever. I wonder if mentality and national traits even exist.

nanofortnight 11y ago
They do, but they're merely tendencies: You get a wide range of things in any country, unfortunately the world isn't black and white.
kuschku 11y ago
And how did VW handle it? CEO resigned, 10 board members suspended, all non-management employees (engineers, programmers, etc) have full immunity, even if they worked on the defeat device. That’s the most honorable reaction one could expect, and it allows to get rid of the issue.
- archon 11y ago
  > all non-board employees have full immunity, even if they worked on the defeat device I'm not trying to pick a fight, but how is that in any way honorable?
  - kuschku 11y ago
    Because this defeat device is nothing you should blame on a single engineer, it is clearly a systematic issue, and normal engineers should not be held accountable for actions that the CEO and board forced them to do.
    - vidarh 11y ago
      On the other hand it teaches those on the ground that obeying illegal orders is perfectly fine, because, hey, you won't get punished.
      - kuschku 11y ago
        It is also the only way you get people ever providing evidence against their boss, as otherwise they'd risk incriminating themselves.
        vidarh 11y ago
        You can support that goal by offering immunity to whistleblowers.
        kuschku 11y ago
        Well, offering immunity to everyone who just followed orders is an important part of doing so. And it makes in this case everything a lot easier.
        vidarh 11y ago
        Offering immunity to everyone who just followed orders is far more drastic than offering immunity specifically only to those who actually takes the step of whistleblowing before the issue becomes known. The former creates no incentive to be a whistleblower - it just takes away one of the risks of doing so. The latter creates a strong incentive to be the first to report something.
      - Retra 11y ago
        Disobeying those orders would just get you quietly fired.
    - riffraff 11y ago
      and yet the "I was only following orders" line of defense should not be very popular anymore, especially in a german context.
  - stefantalpalaru 11y ago
    Befehl ist Befehl ;-)
  - mtgx 11y ago
    Didn't they blame two engineers for it? http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/08/volkswagen-emissions-congress-update-2-p-idUSL1N1281B720151008 http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/08/volkswagen-emissio...
    - kuschku 11y ago
      That’s what the CEO of the US branch said. Those "engineers" were the leading engineer of R&D and the leading engineer of Engine Design. Both board members.
eli_gottlieb 11y ago
>I wonder if mentality and national traits even exist. Sometimes, but more often they're more propaganda than truth.
- sdoering 11y ago
  And oftentimes the ones rallying other behind said traits are the first ones to ditch them in private. As seen in history again and again. For example during the fall of the roman empire. Except maybe for Cato the younger[0]. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cato_the_Younger https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cato_the_Younger
PeterStuer 11y ago
Not to absolve the Germans in any way, but the French, Swedish and US automobile industry was caught with this kind of cheating software 15 years before the Germans. It doesn't seem to be a nationality thing. http://www.transportenvironment.org/publications/cycle-beating-and-eu-test-cycle-cars-te-9803 http://www.transportenvironment.org/publications/cycle-beati...

by flexie 11y ago

nanofortnight 11y ago

They do, but they're merely tendencies: You get a wide range of things in any country, unfortunately the world isn't black and white.

kuschku 11y ago

And how did VW handle it? CEO resigned, 10 board members suspended, all non-management employees (engineers, programmers, etc) have full immunity, even if they worked on the defeat device. That’s the most honorable reaction one could expect, and it allows to get rid of the issue.

archon 11y ago
> all non-board employees have full immunity, even if they worked on the defeat device I'm not trying to pick a fight, but how is that in any way honorable?
- kuschku 11y ago
  Because this defeat device is nothing you should blame on a single engineer, it is clearly a systematic issue, and normal engineers should not be held accountable for actions that the CEO and board forced them to do.
  - vidarh 11y ago
    On the other hand it teaches those on the ground that obeying illegal orders is perfectly fine, because, hey, you won't get punished.
    - kuschku 11y ago
      It is also the only way you get people ever providing evidence against their boss, as otherwise they'd risk incriminating themselves.
      - vidarh 11y ago
        You can support that goal by offering immunity to whistleblowers.
        kuschku 11y ago
        Well, offering immunity to everyone who just followed orders is an important part of doing so. And it makes in this case everything a lot easier.
        vidarh 11y ago
        Offering immunity to everyone who just followed orders is far more drastic than offering immunity specifically only to those who actually takes the step of whistleblowing before the issue becomes known. The former creates no incentive to be a whistleblower - it just takes away one of the risks of doing so. The latter creates a strong incentive to be the first to report something.
    - Retra 11y ago
      Disobeying those orders would just get you quietly fired.
  - riffraff 11y ago
    and yet the "I was only following orders" line of defense should not be very popular anymore, especially in a german context.
- stefantalpalaru 11y ago
  Befehl ist Befehl ;-)
- mtgx 11y ago
  Didn't they blame two engineers for it? http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/08/volkswagen-emissions-congress-update-2-p-idUSL1N1281B720151008 http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/08/volkswagen-emissio...
  - kuschku 11y ago
    That’s what the CEO of the US branch said. Those "engineers" were the leading engineer of R&D and the leading engineer of Engine Design. Both board members.

eli_gottlieb 11y ago

>I wonder if mentality and national traits even exist. Sometimes, but more often they're more propaganda than truth.

sdoering 11y ago
And oftentimes the ones rallying other behind said traits are the first ones to ditch them in private. As seen in history again and again. For example during the fall of the roman empire. Except maybe for Cato the younger[0]. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cato_the_Younger https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cato_the_Younger

PeterStuer 11y ago

Not to absolve the Germans in any way, but the French, Swedish and US automobile industry was caught with this kind of cheating software 15 years before the Germans. It doesn't seem to be a nationality thing. http://www.transportenvironment.org/publications/cycle-beating-and-eu-test-cycle-cars-te-9803 http://www.transportenvironment.org/publications/cycle-beati...