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Depends on the human. I know people who value truth over what's in their best interest (economically), or what feels "right". As I understand it, science is in

by forloop 11y ago

Depends on the human. I know people who value truth over what's in their best interest (economically), or what feels "right". As I understand it, science is in some form seeking truth. As such, a scientist who lies relentlessly in the face of evidence wouldn't very effective. A quote from John Maynard Keynes: "When my information changes, I alter my conclusions. What do you do, sir?". How would you characterise how JMK acts in the face of evidence? Unless you can be more specific(?), I can't find your generalisation in any way convincing. What you've done just looks like a lazy rhetorical tool to me. Am I wrong?

ucaetano 11y ago
My generalization is as convincing as "all politicians are liars". All humans lie relentlessly, but I never said they only lie. A physicist might not lie when talking about physics, but might tell a white lie to make her husband or a friend happy. We all lie, and all the time. We notice politicians' lies more simply because they're public.
- forloop 11y ago
  > My generalization is as convincing as "all politicians are liars" I didn't say "all politicians are liars". That's a straw man. > A physicist might not lie when talking about physics, but might tell a white lie to make her husband or a friend happy. I wouldn't call that relentless. Would you? You say: > We all lie, and all the time. And also: > A physicist might not lie when talking about physics So, we don't "all lie, and all the time".
- tripzilch 11y ago
  > We notice politicians' lies more simply because they're public. I disagree. Politicians do in fact, generally, lie more than most people. In particular many of the successful ones. It's often a large part of how they got successful. You could almost say it's part of their job (fortunately, there are some politicians that do not believe this). Sometimes it's for a (relatively) benign reason, a "political white lie" if you like. But just as often (if not more often) it's to protect their own interests, or the interests of certain parties (corporations, usually) that are not quite aligned with the people they are supposed to be representing. The fact that some of their statements are public just matches the fact that many people in the public may have an idea or opinion about that statement and can judge it. Say your neighbour lies about having borrowed your hedge-trimmer. If that statement were to become public, I still wouldn't be able to judge its truthfulness. Of course a public statement raises the bar because it has more eyes on it, but even non-public lies involving just a few people generally have the tendency to come out eventually, if it matters and they pay some attention. I believe their statements being public only explains a small part of why politicians are so often caught lying. Another way to look at it is to consider other public figures that are not politicians. They don't lie nearly as often. In particular, public figures like those "tonight" talkshow hosts, such as Stewart or Oliver. And you know why they often don't "need" to lie, because they can afford to. And when they do lie (because occasionally they do), and I caught them at it, it wasn't too hard to figure out why, and it always involved some other entity such that they couldn't afford not lying[0]. So when they are affected by the same reason why politicians tend to lie more often. Of course, none of us never lies. I don't think it would be entirely impossible, but it would probably be very very hard. However I do believe that there's a quite wide spectrum from people that lie very little, to people that really lie very often (and therefore don't think much of doing it). And politicians most definitely tend to be found at the far end of that spectrum. [0] ignoring obvious lies for comedic value. Let's call that "fiction" or something, conflating it with the other types of lies we are discussing here will just confuse matters.
walterstucco 11y ago
No, it doesn't, all humans lie.

by forloop 11y ago

ucaetano 11y ago

My generalization is as convincing as "all politicians are liars". All humans lie relentlessly, but I never said they only lie. A physicist might not lie when talking about physics, but might tell a white lie to make her husband or a friend happy. We all lie, and all the time. We notice politicians' lies more simply because they're public.

forloop 11y ago
> My generalization is as convincing as "all politicians are liars" I didn't say "all politicians are liars". That's a straw man. > A physicist might not lie when talking about physics, but might tell a white lie to make her husband or a friend happy. I wouldn't call that relentless. Would you? You say: > We all lie, and all the time. And also: > A physicist might not lie when talking about physics So, we don't "all lie, and all the time".
tripzilch 11y ago
> We notice politicians' lies more simply because they're public. I disagree. Politicians do in fact, generally, lie more than most people. In particular many of the successful ones. It's often a large part of how they got successful. You could almost say it's part of their job (fortunately, there are some politicians that do not believe this). Sometimes it's for a (relatively) benign reason, a "political white lie" if you like. But just as often (if not more often) it's to protect their own interests, or the interests of certain parties (corporations, usually) that are not quite aligned with the people they are supposed to be representing. The fact that some of their statements are public just matches the fact that many people in the public may have an idea or opinion about that statement and can judge it. Say your neighbour lies about having borrowed your hedge-trimmer. If that statement were to become public, I still wouldn't be able to judge its truthfulness. Of course a public statement raises the bar because it has more eyes on it, but even non-public lies involving just a few people generally have the tendency to come out eventually, if it matters and they pay some attention. I believe their statements being public only explains a small part of why politicians are so often caught lying. Another way to look at it is to consider other public figures that are not politicians. They don't lie nearly as often. In particular, public figures like those "tonight" talkshow hosts, such as Stewart or Oliver. And you know why they often don't "need" to lie, because they can afford to. And when they do lie (because occasionally they do), and I caught them at it, it wasn't too hard to figure out why, and it always involved some other entity such that they couldn't afford not lying[0]. So when they are affected by the same reason why politicians tend to lie more often. Of course, none of us never lies. I don't think it would be entirely impossible, but it would probably be very very hard. However I do believe that there's a quite wide spectrum from people that lie very little, to people that really lie very often (and therefore don't think much of doing it). And politicians most definitely tend to be found at the far end of that spectrum. [0] ignoring obvious lies for comedic value. Let's call that "fiction" or something, conflating it with the other types of lies we are discussing here will just confuse matters.

walterstucco 11y ago

No, it doesn't, all humans lie.