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If I've learned anything from the "war" on drugs: don't trust politicians and governments. They'll lie relentlessly; even in the face of evidence.

by forloop 11y ago

ucaetano 11y ago
If I've learned anything from the "war" on drugs: don't trust politicians and governments. They'll lie relentlessly; even in the face of evidence. If I've learned anything from being a human: don't trust humans. They'll lie relentlessly; even in the face of evidence.
- enraged_camel 11y ago
  Not so. Politicians lie far more often than the average person. It is easy to see why: a politician's job is to get re-elected, and the best way to do that is to please their campaign donors while simultaneously lying through their teeth to tell the voters what they want to hear.
  - ucaetano 11y ago
    I'd love to see data on that. Maybe their lies are just more public. They're all humans, after all.
    - forloop 11y ago
      I would love do see any data/evidence from you. > Maybe their lies are just more public. They're all humans, after all. ...your evidence is your previous, unproven argument.
      - ucaetano 11y ago
        I don't have evidence either way, that why there's a "maybe" there. Politicians lie, humans lie, and politicians are humans. Unless there's some strong evidence, claiming that politicians lie more than the average human makes no sense.
    - TeMPOraL 11y ago
      If anyone finds such a study, then for the record, here are my expectations: - Politicians lie much more than an average person. - Sales and marketing people lie more than politicians.
    - kbart 11y ago
      No data on this matter, but when a politician can say obvious lies in front of, sometimes literary, millions of people and look comfortable about that, it says something about him as a human being. I for one, couldn't do that.
  - frandroid 11y ago
    Politicians rarely lie outright; it's too easy to catch. They usually use equivocating language, or phrase statements that make you believe that they're committing to one thing when in reality they are committing to a much narrower band of truth. Now, if you want to talk about what NSA and CIA chiefs say to the U.S. Congress under oath, there are tons of lies there.
    - evgen 11y ago
      Once again, s/politician/human/ and your statement is more honest. So, why do you phrase statements to make people believe that politicians are some special class of humans that think differently or are somehow immune from other standards of human behavior? By committing to a much narrower band of truth regarding the human propensity to spin arguments in our favor, act in our own interests, and deceive ourselves and others you seem to suggest that you are, by your own standard, deceiving us. Have you run for political office before? Perhaps that is your source of authority for your claims.
      - tripzilch 11y ago
        If by "special class" you mean "because it is part of being successful at their career", I don't see much wrong with the statement. Consider a career ("special class") that we (hopefully) agree on where being dishonest is required to succeed. An illusionist, or a spy / secret agent. Do they think differently about truth than most people? Well yes, of course they do. I can think of at least two reasons: self-selection and habit+experience. All three examples do so for different specific reasons, and in different ways. For the illusionist and the spy, I guess that's what we expect of people doing those jobs. For politicians, not so much.
    - tripzilch 11y ago
      > Politicians rarely lie outright; it's too easy to catch. They usually use equivocating language, or phrase statements that make you believe that they're committing to one thing when in reality they are committing to a much narrower band of truth. Even then, if you look closely, there's still quite often a clear and outright lie, just cushioned in "equivocating language" (nice term, btw). It's just that all the cushioning tends to make pointing out the lie within seem like a petty thing to do. And in the case of politician-to-politicians they tend not to do that to each other because they recognize the game being played and rather not risk getting theirs in turn. If it does happen, it gets ugly fast, and both parties are worse off. BTW I don't disagree that there's also a large amount of "equivocating language" going on, without any outright lies in the middle of it. Maybe that's even more common. Doesn't mean they don't lie, quite a lot more than people whose career doesn't depend on it. Also (but this is just opinion) if "equivocating language" is used to deliberately give people / the public a wrong idea, that's not far from lying either. Even if it's "technically" true. And then there's still quite a large number of politicians, on all sides of the spectrum, left/right, popular or not, powerful or not, that I have seen knowingly speaking some pretty damn big lies, and not seeing any consequences for it.
- forloop 11y ago
  Depends on the human. I know people who value truth over what's in their best interest (economically), or what feels "right". As I understand it, science is in some form seeking truth. As such, a scientist who lies relentlessly in the face of evidence wouldn't very effective. A quote from John Maynard Keynes: "When my information changes, I alter my conclusions. What do you do, sir?". How would you characterise how JMK acts in the face of evidence? Unless you can be more specific(?), I can't find your generalisation in any way convincing. What you've done just looks like a lazy rhetorical tool to me. Am I wrong?
  - ucaetano 11y ago
    My generalization is as convincing as "all politicians are liars". All humans lie relentlessly, but I never said they only lie. A physicist might not lie when talking about physics, but might tell a white lie to make her husband or a friend happy. We all lie, and all the time. We notice politicians' lies more simply because they're public.
    - forloop 11y ago
      > My generalization is as convincing as "all politicians are liars" I didn't say "all politicians are liars". That's a straw man. > A physicist might not lie when talking about physics, but might tell a white lie to make her husband or a friend happy. I wouldn't call that relentless. Would you? You say: > We all lie, and all the time. And also: > A physicist might not lie when talking about physics So, we don't "all lie, and all the time".
    - tripzilch 11y ago
      > We notice politicians' lies more simply because they're public. I disagree. Politicians do in fact, generally, lie more than most people. In particular many of the successful ones. It's often a large part of how they got successful. You could almost say it's part of their job (fortunately, there are some politicians that do not believe this). Sometimes it's for a (relatively) benign reason, a "political white lie" if you like. But just as often (if not more often) it's to protect their own interests, or the interests of certain parties (corporations, usually) that are not quite aligned with the people they are supposed to be representing. The fact that some of their statements are public just matches the fact that many people in the public may have an idea or opinion about that statement and can judge it. Say your neighbour lies about having borrowed your hedge-trimmer. If that statement were to become public, I still wouldn't be able to judge its truthfulness. Of course a public statement raises the bar because it has more eyes on it, but even non-public lies involving just a few people generally have the tendency to come out eventually, if it matters and they pay some attention. I believe their statements being public only explains a small part of why politicians are so often caught lying. Another way to look at it is to consider other public figures that are not politicians. They don't lie nearly as often. In particular, public figures like those "tonight" talkshow hosts, such as Stewart or Oliver. And you know why they often don't "need" to lie, because they can afford to. And when they do lie (because occasionally they do), and I caught them at it, it wasn't too hard to figure out why, and it always involved some other entity such that they couldn't afford not lying[0]. So when they are affected by the same reason why politicians tend to lie more often. Of course, none of us never lies. I don't think it would be entirely impossible, but it would probably be very very hard. However I do believe that there's a quite wide spectrum from people that lie very little, to people that really lie very often (and therefore don't think much of doing it). And politicians most definitely tend to be found at the far end of that spectrum. [0] ignoring obvious lies for comedic value. Let's call that "fiction" or something, conflating it with the other types of lies we are discussing here will just confuse matters.
Kurtz79 11y ago
Also, if I've learned something from studying English is that "should" is not "will". Especially if "should" is said by an entity that has effectively no decision power in the matter.

If I've learned anything from the "war" on drugs: don't trust politicians and governments. They'll lie relentlessly; even in the face of evidence.

by forloop 11y ago

If I've learned anything from the "war" on drugs: don't trust politicians and governments. They'll lie relentlessly; even in the face of evidence.

ucaetano 11y ago

If I've learned anything from the "war" on drugs: don't trust politicians and governments. They'll lie relentlessly; even in the face of evidence. If I've learned anything from being a human: don't trust humans. They'll lie relentlessly; even in the face of evidence.

enraged_camel 11y ago
Not so. Politicians lie far more often than the average person. It is easy to see why: a politician's job is to get re-elected, and the best way to do that is to please their campaign donors while simultaneously lying through their teeth to tell the voters what they want to hear.
- ucaetano 11y ago
  I'd love to see data on that. Maybe their lies are just more public. They're all humans, after all.
  - forloop 11y ago
    I would love do see any data/evidence from you. > Maybe their lies are just more public. They're all humans, after all. ...your evidence is your previous, unproven argument.
    - ucaetano 11y ago
      I don't have evidence either way, that why there's a "maybe" there. Politicians lie, humans lie, and politicians are humans. Unless there's some strong evidence, claiming that politicians lie more than the average human makes no sense.
  - TeMPOraL 11y ago
    If anyone finds such a study, then for the record, here are my expectations: - Politicians lie much more than an average person. - Sales and marketing people lie more than politicians.
  - kbart 11y ago
    No data on this matter, but when a politician can say obvious lies in front of, sometimes literary, millions of people and look comfortable about that, it says something about him as a human being. I for one, couldn't do that.
- frandroid 11y ago
  Politicians rarely lie outright; it's too easy to catch. They usually use equivocating language, or phrase statements that make you believe that they're committing to one thing when in reality they are committing to a much narrower band of truth. Now, if you want to talk about what NSA and CIA chiefs say to the U.S. Congress under oath, there are tons of lies there.
  - evgen 11y ago
    Once again, s/politician/human/ and your statement is more honest. So, why do you phrase statements to make people believe that politicians are some special class of humans that think differently or are somehow immune from other standards of human behavior? By committing to a much narrower band of truth regarding the human propensity to spin arguments in our favor, act in our own interests, and deceive ourselves and others you seem to suggest that you are, by your own standard, deceiving us. Have you run for political office before? Perhaps that is your source of authority for your claims.
    - tripzilch 11y ago
      If by "special class" you mean "because it is part of being successful at their career", I don't see much wrong with the statement. Consider a career ("special class") that we (hopefully) agree on where being dishonest is required to succeed. An illusionist, or a spy / secret agent. Do they think differently about truth than most people? Well yes, of course they do. I can think of at least two reasons: self-selection and habit+experience. All three examples do so for different specific reasons, and in different ways. For the illusionist and the spy, I guess that's what we expect of people doing those jobs. For politicians, not so much.
  - tripzilch 11y ago
    > Politicians rarely lie outright; it's too easy to catch. They usually use equivocating language, or phrase statements that make you believe that they're committing to one thing when in reality they are committing to a much narrower band of truth. Even then, if you look closely, there's still quite often a clear and outright lie, just cushioned in "equivocating language" (nice term, btw). It's just that all the cushioning tends to make pointing out the lie within seem like a petty thing to do. And in the case of politician-to-politicians they tend not to do that to each other because they recognize the game being played and rather not risk getting theirs in turn. If it does happen, it gets ugly fast, and both parties are worse off. BTW I don't disagree that there's also a large amount of "equivocating language" going on, without any outright lies in the middle of it. Maybe that's even more common. Doesn't mean they don't lie, quite a lot more than people whose career doesn't depend on it. Also (but this is just opinion) if "equivocating language" is used to deliberately give people / the public a wrong idea, that's not far from lying either. Even if it's "technically" true. And then there's still quite a large number of politicians, on all sides of the spectrum, left/right, popular or not, powerful or not, that I have seen knowingly speaking some pretty damn big lies, and not seeing any consequences for it.
forloop 11y ago
Depends on the human. I know people who value truth over what's in their best interest (economically), or what feels "right". As I understand it, science is in some form seeking truth. As such, a scientist who lies relentlessly in the face of evidence wouldn't very effective. A quote from John Maynard Keynes: "When my information changes, I alter my conclusions. What do you do, sir?". How would you characterise how JMK acts in the face of evidence? Unless you can be more specific(?), I can't find your generalisation in any way convincing. What you've done just looks like a lazy rhetorical tool to me. Am I wrong?
- ucaetano 11y ago
  My generalization is as convincing as "all politicians are liars". All humans lie relentlessly, but I never said they only lie. A physicist might not lie when talking about physics, but might tell a white lie to make her husband or a friend happy. We all lie, and all the time. We notice politicians' lies more simply because they're public.
  - forloop 11y ago
    > My generalization is as convincing as "all politicians are liars" I didn't say "all politicians are liars". That's a straw man. > A physicist might not lie when talking about physics, but might tell a white lie to make her husband or a friend happy. I wouldn't call that relentless. Would you? You say: > We all lie, and all the time. And also: > A physicist might not lie when talking about physics So, we don't "all lie, and all the time".
  - tripzilch 11y ago
    > We notice politicians' lies more simply because they're public. I disagree. Politicians do in fact, generally, lie more than most people. In particular many of the successful ones. It's often a large part of how they got successful. You could almost say it's part of their job (fortunately, there are some politicians that do not believe this). Sometimes it's for a (relatively) benign reason, a "political white lie" if you like. But just as often (if not more often) it's to protect their own interests, or the interests of certain parties (corporations, usually) that are not quite aligned with the people they are supposed to be representing. The fact that some of their statements are public just matches the fact that many people in the public may have an idea or opinion about that statement and can judge it. Say your neighbour lies about having borrowed your hedge-trimmer. If that statement were to become public, I still wouldn't be able to judge its truthfulness. Of course a public statement raises the bar because it has more eyes on it, but even non-public lies involving just a few people generally have the tendency to come out eventually, if it matters and they pay some attention. I believe their statements being public only explains a small part of why politicians are so often caught lying. Another way to look at it is to consider other public figures that are not politicians. They don't lie nearly as often. In particular, public figures like those "tonight" talkshow hosts, such as Stewart or Oliver. And you know why they often don't "need" to lie, because they can afford to. And when they do lie (because occasionally they do), and I caught them at it, it wasn't too hard to figure out why, and it always involved some other entity such that they couldn't afford not lying[0]. So when they are affected by the same reason why politicians tend to lie more often. Of course, none of us never lies. I don't think it would be entirely impossible, but it would probably be very very hard. However I do believe that there's a quite wide spectrum from people that lie very little, to people that really lie very often (and therefore don't think much of doing it). And politicians most definitely tend to be found at the far end of that spectrum. [0] ignoring obvious lies for comedic value. Let's call that "fiction" or something, conflating it with the other types of lies we are discussing here will just confuse matters.

Kurtz79 11y ago

Also, if I've learned something from studying English is that "should" is not "will". Especially if "should" is said by an entity that has effectively no decision power in the matter.