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I am so proud of Google right now. It's hard to contain. It is high time somoene stood up to China and let them know enough is enough. I sincerely hope other co

I am so proud of Google right now. It's hard to contain. It is high time somoene stood up to China and let them know enough is enough. I sincerely hope other corporations follow suit. As I mentioned elsewhere, I am sure there is more to the story than is being let on now. I could only imagine the level of corporate espionage that is in play between China and Google. Good for Google calling them on it and making a broad public move. As far as I'm concerned, Google has just turned me into a lifelong user.

djcapelis 17y ago
> I could only imagine the level of corporate espionage that is in play between China and Google. I'm not sure these types of interactions can still be described as corporate espionage. The fact that one of these parties is a sovereign nation creates wrinkle to this whole thing. (From what I understand China doesn't directly link themselves too closely with this but no one really thinks this isn't covert stuff being directed by their government.)
- rms 17y ago
  It's further muddled because China is a sovereign nation with significant corporate holdings.
- dubcomesaveme 17y ago
  Governments are basically corporations with varying degrees of public ownership that have monopolies on societal goods. I would consider this corporate espionage. The US also engages in corporate espionage through the NSA in the interest of its defense contractors. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_Agency#ECHELON http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_Agency#ECHELO... (last paragraph)
itistoday 17y ago
> I am so proud of Google right now. I am too, but I think we should remember that China's citizens were and still are being censored, killed, and tortured on a daily basis. Google was fine doing business with them and even assisting in their censorship. Only until Google found itself on the receiving end of China's baton did it finally decide to change their relationship. They deserve kudos and a pat on the back for realizing that it's not good to bow down and comply with a government that tortures and locks up its citizens for speaking their minds, but they don't deserve any sort of hero worship.
- codexon 17y ago
  I agree with all of what you've said. The skeptic in me thinks that Google is using this attack as an excuse to offset the PR disaster when Schmidt said the if you have something to hide maybe you shouldn't be doing it speech.
  - andreyf 17y ago
    Google is using this attack as an excuse to offset the PR disaster when Schmidt said the if you have something to hide maybe you shouldn't be doing it speech. That's just insane... do you really think the two are comprable? Google would lose more customers by withdrawing from China than people who know, much less care in the least, about that quote...
    - codexon 17y ago
      That's just insane... do you really think the two are comprable? 1. Google is not withdrawing from China. They are merely deciding not to implement additional censoring measures to curry additional favor with the government. 2. They have been losing market share to an inferior but government approved search engine Baidu. Why do you think Google China's Kai-fu Lee left after a few years in his highest position to make a relatively small startup when his track record shows he prefers large corporations like Apple, SGI, and Microsoft? Google knows they are losing ground and he was probably abandoning the sinking ship. Another year of lost market share to government supported Baidu and the recent espionage was the last straw for Google to know that their current methods weren't working. 3. Why are you comparing them then? It's not like Google decided to make this happen so they could publicly denounce the Chinese government. Considering their past practices with China, I would have expected them to keep silent on the matter. I don't think it's unreasonable to think that the Schmidt incident influenced the scale of their reaction. If you think Schmidt's quote did not make a big impact , that's your opinion, not fact.
      - mschwar99 17y ago
        I think you are probably partially correct in the sense that a company as large as Google is not comprised of one single personality. The decision making voices in Google could well run the spectrum from those advocating a moral line in the sand all the way to those bottom liners that were convinced that an action like this could well have enough PR upside to offset any potential losses in the Chinese market.
chrischen 17y ago
Be careful there, your commitment is no different from the conviction of a nationalist approving one's government's actions no matter what is done. You being critical of Google is the only thing guaranteed to keep them in check.
- houseabsolute 17y ago
  The correct time to criticize organizations to keep them in check is when they have done something worthy of criticism. On the other hand, when they have done things worthy of praise, celebrating them is at worst a no op.
  - chrischen 17y ago
    Mainly talking about his "lifelong user" statement. Companies are fluid entities, constantly morphing and changing. Praising the action is where the focus should be, not the company.
liuliu 17y ago
And it started. Major news sites in China start to filter out this news which has been heavily reported several hours ago. I expected all Google service will be blocked by the end of today. Edit: maybe not that soon. A second thought, current news block may be interpreted as a "saving face" for Google. China high officials may have that kind of thought and think it is for Google's own benefits so that they can still discuss with Chinese gov. Otherwise if it is spread, there is no room for discussion.
- netcan 17y ago
  I'm not sure they can just block all Google services all of a sudden. What about mail. What about docs. What about turning off your Google Adwords account.
  - blhack 17y ago
    Why on earth is this comment being downmodded? Netscan makes a completely valid point. What China should, in my opinion, do is slowly phase google out; throttle traffic to google's servers and then release some news articles with false statements from google that they can't support the traffic. Getting the people of China to willfully abandon Google would be good in the eyes of the Chinese government.
  - netcan 17y ago
    I think (judging by downvotes) that I am being misunderstood. My thinking was along these lines: Mr Small Chinese Exporter wakes up tomorrow unable to access his Google Adwords account which is how he connects to foreign importers. He's out of widgets and wants to stop advertising them. He can't even suspend the campaign and they keep charging his credit card. That's bad business. I'm not sure China would want to do that suddenly even if they do plan to eventually block all of Google's stuff. I took "al' Google service" to mean all the different Google products.
    - tel 17y ago
      Historically, China would do that. Probably it'll depend on how many influential people actually use google docs and such. I suspect not enough.
kevintwohy 17y ago
Agreed, but Occam's Razor seems too tempting not to consider in this situation. What's more likely, that Google decided overnight to get wise to the 'evil-being' that they might have been underwriting in China for the last 5 years, or that the business circumstances shifted such that an exit from the Chinese search market made more sense for the company, and a story was thus spun?

djcapelis 17y ago

> I could only imagine the level of corporate espionage that is in play between China and Google. I'm not sure these types of interactions can still be described as corporate espionage. The fact that one of these parties is a sovereign nation creates wrinkle to this whole thing. (From what I understand China doesn't directly link themselves too closely with this but no one really thinks this isn't covert stuff being directed by their government.)

rms 17y ago
It's further muddled because China is a sovereign nation with significant corporate holdings.
dubcomesaveme 17y ago
Governments are basically corporations with varying degrees of public ownership that have monopolies on societal goods. I would consider this corporate espionage. The US also engages in corporate espionage through the NSA in the interest of its defense contractors. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_Agency#ECHELON http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_Agency#ECHELO... (last paragraph)

itistoday 17y ago

> I am so proud of Google right now. I am too, but I think we should remember that China's citizens were and still are being censored, killed, and tortured on a daily basis. Google was fine doing business with them and even assisting in their censorship. Only until Google found itself on the receiving end of China's baton did it finally decide to change their relationship. They deserve kudos and a pat on the back for realizing that it's not good to bow down and comply with a government that tortures and locks up its citizens for speaking their minds, but they don't deserve any sort of hero worship.

codexon 17y ago
I agree with all of what you've said. The skeptic in me thinks that Google is using this attack as an excuse to offset the PR disaster when Schmidt said the if you have something to hide maybe you shouldn't be doing it speech.
- andreyf 17y ago
  Google is using this attack as an excuse to offset the PR disaster when Schmidt said the if you have something to hide maybe you shouldn't be doing it speech. That's just insane... do you really think the two are comprable? Google would lose more customers by withdrawing from China than people who know, much less care in the least, about that quote...
  - codexon 17y ago
    That's just insane... do you really think the two are comprable? 1. Google is not withdrawing from China. They are merely deciding not to implement additional censoring measures to curry additional favor with the government. 2. They have been losing market share to an inferior but government approved search engine Baidu. Why do you think Google China's Kai-fu Lee left after a few years in his highest position to make a relatively small startup when his track record shows he prefers large corporations like Apple, SGI, and Microsoft? Google knows they are losing ground and he was probably abandoning the sinking ship. Another year of lost market share to government supported Baidu and the recent espionage was the last straw for Google to know that their current methods weren't working. 3. Why are you comparing them then? It's not like Google decided to make this happen so they could publicly denounce the Chinese government. Considering their past practices with China, I would have expected them to keep silent on the matter. I don't think it's unreasonable to think that the Schmidt incident influenced the scale of their reaction. If you think Schmidt's quote did not make a big impact , that's your opinion, not fact.
    - mschwar99 17y ago
      I think you are probably partially correct in the sense that a company as large as Google is not comprised of one single personality. The decision making voices in Google could well run the spectrum from those advocating a moral line in the sand all the way to those bottom liners that were convinced that an action like this could well have enough PR upside to offset any potential losses in the Chinese market.

chrischen 17y ago

Be careful there, your commitment is no different from the conviction of a nationalist approving one's government's actions no matter what is done. You being critical of Google is the only thing guaranteed to keep them in check.

houseabsolute 17y ago
The correct time to criticize organizations to keep them in check is when they have done something worthy of criticism. On the other hand, when they have done things worthy of praise, celebrating them is at worst a no op.
- chrischen 17y ago
  Mainly talking about his "lifelong user" statement. Companies are fluid entities, constantly morphing and changing. Praising the action is where the focus should be, not the company.

liuliu 17y ago

And it started. Major news sites in China start to filter out this news which has been heavily reported several hours ago. I expected all Google service will be blocked by the end of today. Edit: maybe not that soon. A second thought, current news block may be interpreted as a "saving face" for Google. China high officials may have that kind of thought and think it is for Google's own benefits so that they can still discuss with Chinese gov. Otherwise if it is spread, there is no room for discussion.

netcan 17y ago
I'm not sure they can just block all Google services all of a sudden. What about mail. What about docs. What about turning off your Google Adwords account.
- blhack 17y ago
  Why on earth is this comment being downmodded? Netscan makes a completely valid point. What China should, in my opinion, do is slowly phase google out; throttle traffic to google's servers and then release some news articles with false statements from google that they can't support the traffic. Getting the people of China to willfully abandon Google would be good in the eyes of the Chinese government.
- netcan 17y ago
  I think (judging by downvotes) that I am being misunderstood. My thinking was along these lines: Mr Small Chinese Exporter wakes up tomorrow unable to access his Google Adwords account which is how he connects to foreign importers. He's out of widgets and wants to stop advertising them. He can't even suspend the campaign and they keep charging his credit card. That's bad business. I'm not sure China would want to do that suddenly even if they do plan to eventually block all of Google's stuff. I took "al' Google service" to mean all the different Google products.
  - tel 17y ago
    Historically, China would do that. Probably it'll depend on how many influential people actually use google docs and such. I suspect not enough.

kevintwohy 17y ago

Agreed, but Occam's Razor seems too tempting not to consider in this situation. What's more likely, that Google decided overnight to get wise to the 'evil-being' that they might have been underwriting in China for the last 5 years, or that the business circumstances shifted such that an exit from the Chinese search market made more sense for the company, and a story was thus spun?