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Housing in New York City and San Francisco is a problem - MASSIVE. Airbnb has helped many people in those cities find places to stay, make extra income, etc. I'

Housing in New York City and San Francisco is a problem - MASSIVE. Airbnb has helped many people in those cities find places to stay, make extra income, etc. I'm certain, because of the reasons the problem exists in the first place, that people have and will continue to find ways to use it in ways that are harmful to vulnerable populations. But if you focus really with any energy on Airbnb as a part of the problem rather than some of the applications of Airbnb as EVIDENCE of the problem, boy howdy are you missing the point. I fear that is what will happen - everyone wants a scape goat, tech is an easy one.

geebee 11y ago
I'm a little late to this thread, but I think short term rentals could be a bigger core problem than you've recognized. This is all hard to determine without data, and some of what I am worried about is a risk rather than a current reality, though it appears to be growing. Here's where I'm coming from - in my lifetime, the percentage of SF residents under the age of 18 has dropped from about 22% to below 14%. Much of this happened without airbnb or short term rentals, so obviously they can't be the core cause. However, it could exacerbate it. Airbnb makes it far easier to rent out a "spare" bedroom - in doing so, they vastly increase the value of having a "spare" bedroom that you don't use. So if you are a family with just one kid, three bedroom houses suddenly become much more attractive than two bedroom houses, because what used to be an occasional guest room is now an income generator. What happens when a family with two kids goes up against them in a bidding war? One family can factor in the extra income, the other factors in no extra income and the additional expenses of an additional kid. airBnB(noKids, hasKids) { unless(noKids.income(isWayHigherThan(hasKids.income)) { numKidsSF--; } } At least in that scenario someone is still going to be "from" SF (when this is no longer the case, SF will be nothing more than a disneyland for young people and empty nesters). It can get worse - what happens if investors now realize that they can just buy the whole 3br house and treat it as a hotel? I could see airbnb being a factor in driving the already collapsing percentage of SF residents who are children to even lower lows. By the way, in all of this, I see a good place for airbnb. If a San Francisco family wants to leave for a vacation in Paris, and they can rent out their place for a couple of weeks, and vice-versa, this seems like a good thing. But if converting a "spare" bedroom means that what were formerly kid's bedrooms are too profitable as tourist rentals to be wasted on children, then no, this would be extremely destructive to SF. We need to regulate this, and airbnb needs to be a good citizen and cooperate. The suggestions in this business insider are good ones.
- fineman 11y ago
  > "We need to regulate this, ..." Do you know that adage that goes: "... then they say, I know, I'll use a regexp. And then they have two problems." It's regulation that got SF into this problem.
  - geebee 11y ago
    "It's regulation that got SF into this problem." Unfortunately, you don't give me much to go off here. I consider myself somewhat moderate where it comes to regulation, though that's probably because, as a programmer who hangs out on HN, I interact with a very tech-ish libertarian crowd. In short, I do see an important role for regulation of industry, housing, and so forth. I also do tend to agree that a lot of regulations are onerous and harmful, but I don't nod in agreement when someone simply says "government" or "regulation", as if the problem has now been adequately identified and analyzed. I do prefer that people actually explain what regulations caused this problem and how, and consider what problems might exist in the absence of regulation. So… if you are pointing out that SF has caused a problem with anti-grown measures, I'd generally agree. If you are pointing out that that peninsula towns have contributed to this problem, I'd overwhelming agree, the behavior from places like Mountain View has been pretty shocking. On the other hand, if you are telling me that zoning is obsolete and that the concept of residential neighborhoods in urban areas, where residents of some neighborhoods trade their right to run a hotel out of their house in exchange for for a legally enforced expectation that they won't have to live next to a house suddenly converted into a hotel - if you're telling me that regulation is the problem, then it's unlikely I'd agree with you, though I am all ears.
    - fineman 11y ago
      Obviously short-term rentals serve a need many have or AirBnB wouldn't have such uptake. Adding regulation to fix that issue without changing regulation to increase supply, etc. seems like it misses the point. People are already ignoring the regulations - how are more going to solve that?

geebee 11y ago

I'm a little late to this thread, but I think short term rentals could be a bigger core problem than you've recognized. This is all hard to determine without data, and some of what I am worried about is a risk rather than a current reality, though it appears to be growing. Here's where I'm coming from - in my lifetime, the percentage of SF residents under the age of 18 has dropped from about 22% to below 14%. Much of this happened without airbnb or short term rentals, so obviously they can't be the core cause. However, it could exacerbate it. Airbnb makes it far easier to rent out a "spare" bedroom - in doing so, they vastly increase the value of having a "spare" bedroom that you don't use. So if you are a family with just one kid, three bedroom houses suddenly become much more attractive than two bedroom houses, because what used to be an occasional guest room is now an income generator. What happens when a family with two kids goes up against them in a bidding war? One family can factor in the extra income, the other factors in no extra income and the additional expenses of an additional kid. airBnB(noKids, hasKids) { unless(noKids.income(isWayHigherThan(hasKids.income)) { numKidsSF--; } } At least in that scenario someone is still going to be "from" SF (when this is no longer the case, SF will be nothing more than a disneyland for young people and empty nesters). It can get worse - what happens if investors now realize that they can just buy the whole 3br house and treat it as a hotel? I could see airbnb being a factor in driving the already collapsing percentage of SF residents who are children to even lower lows. By the way, in all of this, I see a good place for airbnb. If a San Francisco family wants to leave for a vacation in Paris, and they can rent out their place for a couple of weeks, and vice-versa, this seems like a good thing. But if converting a "spare" bedroom means that what were formerly kid's bedrooms are too profitable as tourist rentals to be wasted on children, then no, this would be extremely destructive to SF. We need to regulate this, and airbnb needs to be a good citizen and cooperate. The suggestions in this business insider are good ones.

fineman 11y ago
> "We need to regulate this, ..." Do you know that adage that goes: "... then they say, I know, I'll use a regexp. And then they have two problems." It's regulation that got SF into this problem.
- geebee 11y ago
  "It's regulation that got SF into this problem." Unfortunately, you don't give me much to go off here. I consider myself somewhat moderate where it comes to regulation, though that's probably because, as a programmer who hangs out on HN, I interact with a very tech-ish libertarian crowd. In short, I do see an important role for regulation of industry, housing, and so forth. I also do tend to agree that a lot of regulations are onerous and harmful, but I don't nod in agreement when someone simply says "government" or "regulation", as if the problem has now been adequately identified and analyzed. I do prefer that people actually explain what regulations caused this problem and how, and consider what problems might exist in the absence of regulation. So… if you are pointing out that SF has caused a problem with anti-grown measures, I'd generally agree. If you are pointing out that that peninsula towns have contributed to this problem, I'd overwhelming agree, the behavior from places like Mountain View has been pretty shocking. On the other hand, if you are telling me that zoning is obsolete and that the concept of residential neighborhoods in urban areas, where residents of some neighborhoods trade their right to run a hotel out of their house in exchange for for a legally enforced expectation that they won't have to live next to a house suddenly converted into a hotel - if you're telling me that regulation is the problem, then it's unlikely I'd agree with you, though I am all ears.
  - fineman 11y ago
    Obviously short-term rentals serve a need many have or AirBnB wouldn't have such uptake. Adding regulation to fix that issue without changing regulation to increase supply, etc. seems like it misses the point. People are already ignoring the regulations - how are more going to solve that?