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The issue here is not that Livecoding.tv isn't removing this individual's account, but that individuals sign up for things with the expectation they have rights

The issue here is not that Livecoding.tv isn't removing this individual's account, but that individuals sign up for things with the expectation they have rights to their data. Here's a gem from Livecoding.tv's TOS which clearly indicates their intent with other people's data: > All Materials contained on the Livecoding.tv Service are the proprietary property of Livecoding.tv or its subsidiaries or affiliated companies and/or third-party licensors. All trademarks, service marks, and trade names are proprietary to Livecoding.tv or its affiliates and/or third-party licensors. Livecoding.tv reserves all rights not expressly granted in these Terms of Service. Unless otherwise expressly stated in writing by Livecoding.tv, you are granted a limited, non-sublicensable license (i.e. a personal and limited right) to access and use the Livecoding.tv Service for your personal or internal business use only. In short, if you sign up for an account on their site, they own EVERYTHING. They don't have to delete your account because all of their users agreed to these terms by using the site. Looking through the TOS, there is nothing mentioned about canceling accounts. I'm empathetic to the author of the article, but I will point out that expecting ownership of your content after giving up ownership of your content is logically unsound. Shaming aside, not signing up for a centralized service with limited rights like this in the first place would have resulted in less suffering for everyone involved.

s5edvvddd 11y ago
I think you are quoting the part the protects their( livecoding.tv's ) intellectual property and , and not the streamer. The license for the streamers stars at 11.Broadcasters. It seems you are allowed to cancel the license: 11. Broadcasters a.License from Livecoding.tv. If you sign up for an account as a Streamer, subject to your compliance with these Terms of Service, Livecoding.tv hereby grants to you a personal, limited, non-exclusive, non-transferable, freely revocable license to use the Livecoding.tv Service for the uploading and distributing of authorized digital content, including videos (" Broadcaster Content "). and: 2.Except for Broadcaster Content already downloaded by users, the foregoing license granted by you terminates regarding a specific piece of Broadcaster Content once you remove or delete that Broadcaster Content from the Livecoding.tv Service.
- kordless 11y ago
  I read through that, but that last part basically says "if someone hasn't watched your content, you can revoke the license from the content by deleting it". If anyone has seen any of the other content, the company owns a perpetual license for it. Regarding their site content, it would appear they think they own everything on the site, including user content: > Unless otherwise indicated, all Content and other materials on the Livecoding.tv Services, including, without limitation... That goes on to list all types of content, that the content is trademarked, copyrighted, etc. and then states they own all of the licenses to it, as I mention in my comments above. In comparison, here's Github's statement on the rights to content: > We claim no intellectual property rights over the material you provide to the Service. Your profile and materials uploaded remain yours.
  - s5edvvddd 11y ago
    >Regarding their site content, it would appear they think they own everything on the site, including user content: > Unless otherwise indicated, all Content and other materials on the Livecoding.tv Services, including, without limitation... ... are protected by United States copyright, trade dress, patent, and trademark laws, international conventions, and all other relevant intellectual property and proprietary rights, and applicable laws (including in your country of residence). Where does it say that they own everything?? You are interpreting this whole contract incorrectly.
  - icebraining 11y ago
    I read through that, but that last part basically says "if someone hasn't watched your content, you can revoke the license from the content by deleting it". If anyone has seen any of the other content, the company owns a perpetual license for it. I read that as "if someone is watching a video, they don't suddenly lose their license just because the author removed the video from the platform". Which is reasonable, IMO. That goes on to list all types of content, that the content is trademarked, copyrighted, etc. and then states they own all of the licenses to it, as I mention in my comment above. Yes, but then they "otherwise indicate" that you license your content to them, ie., you own it.
cjslep 11y ago
> expecting ownership of your content after giving up ownership of your content is logically unsound. ...which is why the OP is only really concerned about account deletion, not content deletion (the second half of the article). I am surprised Livecoding has not figured a way to have even a "shell" account with no personal data left but still have the content left untouched, considering the stringent EU laws surrounding personal data.
- detaro 11y ago
  Indeed. Even removing all personal data, putting "deleted account" in the account description and setting it to a company owned email addres would probably work as "deletion" and keep the content visible.
nissehulth 11y ago
Maybe we didn't read the same story, but the issue I see is the way Livecoding treat their users. For example, saying that the account would be deleted on the next cron run seems to be one blatant lie among several. Trying to shift blame with a "it's your own fault, you signed up" may satisfy a lawyer, but it doesn't really do much for customer relations.
mahouse 11y ago
Let me put on my EU-citizen glasses
shadesof 11y ago
That the latter is an issue does not make the former not an issue. The actions of Livecoding.tv here are reprehensible; if they didn't plan to remove the account—be the reason lack of technical capability or legal obligation—why tell the user otherwise? This is a marked display of carelessness.
deepnet 11y ago
https://www.livecoding.tv/terms/ https://www.livecoding.tv/terms/ http://www.twitch.tv/user/legal?page=terms_of_service http://www.twitch.tv/user/legal?page=terms_of_service https://www.youtube.com/static?gl=GB&template=terms https://www.youtube.com/static?gl=GB&template=terms
stordoff 11y ago
> They don't have to delete your account I haven't read the full document, so can't say if they HAVE to delete the account or not, but the last line of the privacy policy definitely implies you can remove any personal information they hold: > If you would like to: access, correct, amend or delete any personal information we have about you, register a complaint, or simply want more information contact our Privacy Compliance Officer at support@Livecoding.tv
kuschku 11y ago
The user in question here is in the EU, the startup has their HQ in the EU, so EU data laws apply, and the user has to be able to delete their account and all data stored.
- DrMJG_HN 11y ago
  I don't think there is a need to discuss where legal headquarters is. We just had a backlog of backend tasks pending. It was just a matter of time.
  - kuschku 11y ago
    It is necessary to discuss where legal headquarters is for the purpose of suing the site for libel, slander and violation of data laws. The site has already been reported by an affected user to the local EU data protection officer, so the legal fallout has already started. If you still have shares in the company, sell.

s5edvvddd 11y ago

I think you are quoting the part the protects their( livecoding.tv's ) intellectual property and , and not the streamer. The license for the streamers stars at 11.Broadcasters. It seems you are allowed to cancel the license: 11. Broadcasters a.License from Livecoding.tv. If you sign up for an account as a Streamer, subject to your compliance with these Terms of Service, Livecoding.tv hereby grants to you a personal, limited, non-exclusive, non-transferable, freely revocable license to use the Livecoding.tv Service for the uploading and distributing of authorized digital content, including videos (" Broadcaster Content "). and: 2.Except for Broadcaster Content already downloaded by users, the foregoing license granted by you terminates regarding a specific piece of Broadcaster Content once you remove or delete that Broadcaster Content from the Livecoding.tv Service.

kordless 11y ago
I read through that, but that last part basically says "if someone hasn't watched your content, you can revoke the license from the content by deleting it". If anyone has seen any of the other content, the company owns a perpetual license for it. Regarding their site content, it would appear they think they own everything on the site, including user content: > Unless otherwise indicated, all Content and other materials on the Livecoding.tv Services, including, without limitation... That goes on to list all types of content, that the content is trademarked, copyrighted, etc. and then states they own all of the licenses to it, as I mention in my comments above. In comparison, here's Github's statement on the rights to content: > We claim no intellectual property rights over the material you provide to the Service. Your profile and materials uploaded remain yours.
- s5edvvddd 11y ago
  >Regarding their site content, it would appear they think they own everything on the site, including user content: > Unless otherwise indicated, all Content and other materials on the Livecoding.tv Services, including, without limitation... ... are protected by United States copyright, trade dress, patent, and trademark laws, international conventions, and all other relevant intellectual property and proprietary rights, and applicable laws (including in your country of residence). Where does it say that they own everything?? You are interpreting this whole contract incorrectly.
- icebraining 11y ago
  I read through that, but that last part basically says "if someone hasn't watched your content, you can revoke the license from the content by deleting it". If anyone has seen any of the other content, the company owns a perpetual license for it. I read that as "if someone is watching a video, they don't suddenly lose their license just because the author removed the video from the platform". Which is reasonable, IMO. That goes on to list all types of content, that the content is trademarked, copyrighted, etc. and then states they own all of the licenses to it, as I mention in my comment above. Yes, but then they "otherwise indicate" that you license your content to them, ie., you own it.

cjslep 11y ago

> expecting ownership of your content after giving up ownership of your content is logically unsound. ...which is why the OP is only really concerned about account deletion, not content deletion (the second half of the article). I am surprised Livecoding has not figured a way to have even a "shell" account with no personal data left but still have the content left untouched, considering the stringent EU laws surrounding personal data.

detaro 11y ago
Indeed. Even removing all personal data, putting "deleted account" in the account description and setting it to a company owned email addres would probably work as "deletion" and keep the content visible.

nissehulth 11y ago

Maybe we didn't read the same story, but the issue I see is the way Livecoding treat their users. For example, saying that the account would be deleted on the next cron run seems to be one blatant lie among several. Trying to shift blame with a "it's your own fault, you signed up" may satisfy a lawyer, but it doesn't really do much for customer relations.

mahouse 11y ago

Let me put on my EU-citizen glasses

shadesof 11y ago

That the latter is an issue does not make the former not an issue. The actions of Livecoding.tv here are reprehensible; if they didn't plan to remove the account—be the reason lack of technical capability or legal obligation—why tell the user otherwise? This is a marked display of carelessness.

deepnet 11y ago

https://www.livecoding.tv/terms/ https://www.livecoding.tv/terms/ http://www.twitch.tv/user/legal?page=terms_of_service http://www.twitch.tv/user/legal?page=terms_of_service https://www.youtube.com/static?gl=GB&template=terms https://www.youtube.com/static?gl=GB&template=terms

stordoff 11y ago

> They don't have to delete your account I haven't read the full document, so can't say if they HAVE to delete the account or not, but the last line of the privacy policy definitely implies you can remove any personal information they hold: > If you would like to: access, correct, amend or delete any personal information we have about you, register a complaint, or simply want more information contact our Privacy Compliance Officer at support@Livecoding.tv

kuschku 11y ago

The user in question here is in the EU, the startup has their HQ in the EU, so EU data laws apply, and the user has to be able to delete their account and all data stored.

DrMJG_HN 11y ago
I don't think there is a need to discuss where legal headquarters is. We just had a backlog of backend tasks pending. It was just a matter of time.
- kuschku 11y ago
  It is necessary to discuss where legal headquarters is for the purpose of suing the site for libel, slander and violation of data laws. The site has already been reported by an affected user to the local EU data protection officer, so the legal fallout has already started. If you still have shares in the company, sell.