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I have to make this comment with a throwaway as its related to my previous job. Leaving aside the technical issues the launch of systemd 'looks' very much like

I have to make this comment with a throwaway as its related to my previous job. Leaving aside the technical issues the launch of systemd 'looks' very much like a playbook PR campaign designed to push through something unpopular. The discrediting debates, labeling near abuse and mockery of opponents, appeals to authority and exaggerated consensus do not look accidental. This has all the markings of a sophisticated campaign. For many this can be off putting but its also a wake up call on some naive ideas about how the world works. Money drives decisions, the cathedral and bazaar as a metaphor has no meaning when the bazaar has spawned a billon dollar cathedral in its midst, and like the failure of communism in practice this too could be anticipated. Money has its own agenda and always corrupts everything. And we all know this because its part of our historical record and common sense. And there is nothing we can do about that because in the real work words are meaningless. Individuals have zero power, groups have some power but its groups with money that hold the cards. The Debian management tells users,not out of exasperation, or frustration but of arrogance that they essentially don't matter, and the only way they can have a voice is with code. This disrespect for users lies in contrast to a project that has none and thus the self awareness to realise it is meaningless without them. This new found arrogance sits uneasily with the ideals of the open source movement but anyone who draws the dots will realise its not an open source movement but a full fledged corporate movement with the thinnest veneer of ideology that is not up for 'management'. For the next generation you cannot protect ideals if you enable and allow cathedrals to grow in your midst. For the current things do not automatically fix themselves, the awareness of the power of money to influence outcomes and how to firewall them, how to ensure co-existence, sustenance and growth, how to reward projects and developers and how to ensure you are not getting hijacked and sidelines by interested parties should be the 'community', and there is no such current organization in the ecosystem that's not tainted by corporatism and opportunism.

ymse 11y ago
How is this related to anything, let alone your job? As I'm sure you know, systemd grew out of Red Hat, and Debian as most other Linux distributions have adopted it in lack of a better alternative. There is no grand scheme to it other than getting rid of SysV. In a few years time uselessd, nosh, dmd and the many other systemd-lookalikes in development have matured and there will once again be diversity in init land.
- JdeBP 11y ago
  The self-styled "uselessd guy" is present on this page, and xe has gone on record some months ago that uselessd is a "dead project". Replace uselessd in your list there with s6-rc and System XVI, therefore. * http://skarnet.org/software/s6-rc/ http://skarnet.org/software/s6-rc/ * https://github.com/ServiceManager/ServiceManager/ https://github.com/ServiceManager/ServiceManager/ * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9809829 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9809829 * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10215008 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10215008 * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10212885 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10212885 And replace "systemd-lookalikes" with service and system management systems, while you are at it. Neither of those is aimed at looking like systemd, and it would do them a disservice to miscategorize them as such. nosh 1.22 is about to be announced.
bsder 11y ago
> Leaving aside the technical issues the launch of systemd 'looks' very much like a playbook PR campaign designed to push through something unpopular. > The discrediting debates, labeling near abuse and mockery of opponents, appeals to authority and exaggerated consensus do not look accidental. This has all the markings of a sophisticated campaign. Sophisticated? That's pretty laughable. To most outside observers this looks like monkeys flinging poo. In addition, you make a serious error in your assumptions: Popular != technically correct Unpopular != technically incorrect RedHat did not just magically have an epiphany and decide to shove systemd down on everybody. They started by using "upstart". Remember how everybody went apeshit over that? Sounds a whole lot like the current debate doesn't it? After using upstart for a while, folks at RedHat decided that wasn't sufficient and they needed a replacement for that. People seem to think that just magically RedHat decided to rip things up for no reason at all. That's patently false--RedHat has some issues that need to be solved and systemd solves those. If you want to beat systemd, you're going to have to give RedHat something which works better. After their experience with upstart, it's no surprise that RedHat just decided to ignore the community. It was clear that a solution was never going to be accepted.

ymse 11y ago

How is this related to anything, let alone your job? As I'm sure you know, systemd grew out of Red Hat, and Debian as most other Linux distributions have adopted it in lack of a better alternative. There is no grand scheme to it other than getting rid of SysV. In a few years time uselessd, nosh, dmd and the many other systemd-lookalikes in development have matured and there will once again be diversity in init land.

JdeBP 11y ago
The self-styled "uselessd guy" is present on this page, and xe has gone on record some months ago that uselessd is a "dead project". Replace uselessd in your list there with s6-rc and System XVI, therefore. * http://skarnet.org/software/s6-rc/ http://skarnet.org/software/s6-rc/ * https://github.com/ServiceManager/ServiceManager/ https://github.com/ServiceManager/ServiceManager/ * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9809829 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9809829 * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10215008 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10215008 * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10212885 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10212885 And replace "systemd-lookalikes" with service and system management systems, while you are at it. Neither of those is aimed at looking like systemd, and it would do them a disservice to miscategorize them as such. nosh 1.22 is about to be announced.

bsder 11y ago

> Leaving aside the technical issues the launch of systemd 'looks' very much like a playbook PR campaign designed to push through something unpopular. > The discrediting debates, labeling near abuse and mockery of opponents, appeals to authority and exaggerated consensus do not look accidental. This has all the markings of a sophisticated campaign. Sophisticated? That's pretty laughable. To most outside observers this looks like monkeys flinging poo. In addition, you make a serious error in your assumptions: Popular != technically correct Unpopular != technically incorrect RedHat did not just magically have an epiphany and decide to shove systemd down on everybody. They started by using "upstart". Remember how everybody went apeshit over that? Sounds a whole lot like the current debate doesn't it? After using upstart for a while, folks at RedHat decided that wasn't sufficient and they needed a replacement for that. People seem to think that just magically RedHat decided to rip things up for no reason at all. That's patently false--RedHat has some issues that need to be solved and systemd solves those. If you want to beat systemd, you're going to have to give RedHat something which works better. After their experience with upstart, it's no surprise that RedHat just decided to ignore the community. It was clear that a solution was never going to be accepted.