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> The Highlanders fancied the music not because it was beautiful. They liked it, they explained, because the trumpets sounded exactly like the brassy screams of

by wtbob 11y ago

> The Highlanders fancied the music not because it was beautiful. They liked it, they explained, because the trumpets sounded exactly like the brassy screams of captive women selected for feasting. And then later: > Our social harmony was going along until the white man arrived … You intrude, and suddenly the things that used to go smoothly no longer do. I'll go out on a limb and suggest that a social harmony in which people love the cries of those they are about to eat is a social harmony which needs disruption, destruction and replacement with something better. What Papua New Guinea needs is more, not less colonialism; it needs a governor like General Sir Charles Napier, who put down the practice of suttee in Sindh, and who upon being entreated by the native priests that it was a sacred rite which should be respected, responded, 'Be it so. This burning of widows is your custom; prepare the funeral pile. But my nation also has a custom. When men burn women alive we hang them, and confiscate all their property. My carpenters shall therefore erect gibbets on which to hang all concerned when the widow is consumed. Let us all act according to national customs!' (from Sir W.F. Napier's 'History of General Sir Charles Napiers Administration of Scinde'). It's a tragedy that civilised powers did not stay there longer and correct more of PNG's broken society; it would be a crime (of ethics, if not of law) if the Western energy companies aren't doing something to fix that society, rather than live on its edges.

MichaelGG 11y ago
Yep. There's a great book called Sick Societies that does a great job dismantling the myth of the noble savage. PNG is one place discussed. IIRC, it also contains some cultures that highly value eating people you betray. The greater the betrayal (as in, you've befriended someone and act in their interests, then kill them), the higher the reward (respect or whatever). Simply by agreeing on some basic human rights, or just being opposed to murder, is enough to show these societies are bad. Interference isn't intrinsically bad, and there's nothing unethical about putting an end to such atrocities. (It might be easy to fall into the trap of committing your own ethical violations while ending atrocities, but it's not required.) The book does a good job of providing solid evidence of the harm these cultures inflict on people.
- ivoryst 11y ago
  Could the american south of 50 years back included as a "sick society". Just swap "evil witch" with "uppity negro" and exactly the same atrocities were being committed. Labeling whole groups of people as savages or noble is just a lie, and its been used to enslave and dehumanize others through history. We are all capable of being savage or noble, whether you live in a tropical jungle or highrise apartment somewhere.
  - MichaelGG 11y ago
    Even if you do, it doesn't change the myth of the noble savage. Like the poster was saying, these folks are pining for the good days, before the "white man" came and messed it up. All I'm pointing out is that these societies were messed up well before colonization. (I'd guess that post colonization was nearly always an improvement, but that's unrelated.)
    - ivoryst 11y ago
      > I'm pointing out is that these societies were messed up well before colonization Using your metric of "messed up society" ie the public, condoned torture and murder of "outsiders", the point am making is that all societies are pretty messed up. And when you start labelling whole groups of people that way, thats actually step 1 in the plan to exploit, colonize or commit genocide.
      - MichaelGG 11y ago
        That's fine, all societies may be messed up. That's still opposite the claim that they were good before colonization (noble savage, to repeat myself). And I don't think colonization belongs on the same level as genocide. Having lived in a shitty country, they'd be far better off if they were colonized by a decent country (even today). They might be better off after a genocide, too, but that has a negative effect on everyone that's killed so it's unfair. Colonization doesn't have that issue. The people of said country seem to agree, given their persistence of trying to immigrate to other countries, while expressing a fondness for their home country. If their home country was colonized, they could enjoy the benefits of both. (To be absolutely clear, I'm saying that e.g. Elbonia would benefit greatly by having e.g. Canada peacefully take over their government and run it as a second tier province.)
whyIndeed 11y ago
They liked it, they explained, because the trumpets sounded exactly like the brassy screams of captive women selected for feasting. That's really an author injecting context where it might not belong. Considering that these people aren't particularly sophisticated in a social sense, you can't interpret a statement like that directly. It needs to be examined as: a. i like this sound, and appreciate what i'm hearing. b. gee, it reminds me of that time the woman was tortured, and her cries echoed across the valley. something i can never forget. something that cannot be stopped when mobs rule our culture. To lend some credence to my detached perspective on this, consider the following: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazen_bull https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazen_bull Imagine people crafting a sculpture in the likeness of an animal, large enough to load an adult person inside, and being entertained by the noises of people (maybe your enemies, maybe not) being burned to death inside of it. Probably sounds like trumpets, no? Lest we forget what ancient Greece was like. Cruel and unusual punishment isn't as far into the distant past as we'd like to imagine, either. This is just what that quote happened to remind me of. Mob rule, in a place where social stratification is not adequate enough to provide for objective behavior modification by third party authoritarian paramilitary forces, takes on similar shapes around the world. To drive the point home, I like a lot of ridiculous music, and some of the vocalists in the bands I like, they scream like they're being tortured to death. Having never witnessed any form of actual torture, firsthand, I still like the music, even though I'm not gripped by any particular desire to induce screams like that in any of my fellow human beings.
jgome 11y ago
The US armed forces are letting old, powerful men rape children in afghanistan. They also enabled ISIS and other violent muslim groups to grow, after overthrowing Saddam and Gaddafi, and even gave money to them. How do you feel about this, and what are you doing against it? Also, your own armed forces tortured, raped and murdered people. And still do. You people talk a lot about moral relativism... But then you ignore your own history, past and present, of atrocities. You could try being honest about your real beliefs and intentions at least once in your lives.

by wtbob 11y ago

MichaelGG 11y ago

Yep. There's a great book called Sick Societies that does a great job dismantling the myth of the noble savage. PNG is one place discussed. IIRC, it also contains some cultures that highly value eating people you betray. The greater the betrayal (as in, you've befriended someone and act in their interests, then kill them), the higher the reward (respect or whatever). Simply by agreeing on some basic human rights, or just being opposed to murder, is enough to show these societies are bad. Interference isn't intrinsically bad, and there's nothing unethical about putting an end to such atrocities. (It might be easy to fall into the trap of committing your own ethical violations while ending atrocities, but it's not required.) The book does a good job of providing solid evidence of the harm these cultures inflict on people.

ivoryst 11y ago
Could the american south of 50 years back included as a "sick society". Just swap "evil witch" with "uppity negro" and exactly the same atrocities were being committed. Labeling whole groups of people as savages or noble is just a lie, and its been used to enslave and dehumanize others through history. We are all capable of being savage or noble, whether you live in a tropical jungle or highrise apartment somewhere.
- MichaelGG 11y ago
  Even if you do, it doesn't change the myth of the noble savage. Like the poster was saying, these folks are pining for the good days, before the "white man" came and messed it up. All I'm pointing out is that these societies were messed up well before colonization. (I'd guess that post colonization was nearly always an improvement, but that's unrelated.)
  - ivoryst 11y ago
    > I'm pointing out is that these societies were messed up well before colonization Using your metric of "messed up society" ie the public, condoned torture and murder of "outsiders", the point am making is that all societies are pretty messed up. And when you start labelling whole groups of people that way, thats actually step 1 in the plan to exploit, colonize or commit genocide.
    - MichaelGG 11y ago
      That's fine, all societies may be messed up. That's still opposite the claim that they were good before colonization (noble savage, to repeat myself). And I don't think colonization belongs on the same level as genocide. Having lived in a shitty country, they'd be far better off if they were colonized by a decent country (even today). They might be better off after a genocide, too, but that has a negative effect on everyone that's killed so it's unfair. Colonization doesn't have that issue. The people of said country seem to agree, given their persistence of trying to immigrate to other countries, while expressing a fondness for their home country. If their home country was colonized, they could enjoy the benefits of both. (To be absolutely clear, I'm saying that e.g. Elbonia would benefit greatly by having e.g. Canada peacefully take over their government and run it as a second tier province.)

whyIndeed 11y ago

They liked it, they explained, because the trumpets sounded exactly like the brassy screams of captive women selected for feasting. That's really an author injecting context where it might not belong. Considering that these people aren't particularly sophisticated in a social sense, you can't interpret a statement like that directly. It needs to be examined as: a. i like this sound, and appreciate what i'm hearing. b. gee, it reminds me of that time the woman was tortured, and her cries echoed across the valley. something i can never forget. something that cannot be stopped when mobs rule our culture. To lend some credence to my detached perspective on this, consider the following: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazen_bull https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazen_bull Imagine people crafting a sculpture in the likeness of an animal, large enough to load an adult person inside, and being entertained by the noises of people (maybe your enemies, maybe not) being burned to death inside of it. Probably sounds like trumpets, no? Lest we forget what ancient Greece was like. Cruel and unusual punishment isn't as far into the distant past as we'd like to imagine, either. This is just what that quote happened to remind me of. Mob rule, in a place where social stratification is not adequate enough to provide for objective behavior modification by third party authoritarian paramilitary forces, takes on similar shapes around the world. To drive the point home, I like a lot of ridiculous music, and some of the vocalists in the bands I like, they scream like they're being tortured to death. Having never witnessed any form of actual torture, firsthand, I still like the music, even though I'm not gripped by any particular desire to induce screams like that in any of my fellow human beings.

jgome 11y ago

The US armed forces are letting old, powerful men rape children in afghanistan. They also enabled ISIS and other violent muslim groups to grow, after overthrowing Saddam and Gaddafi, and even gave money to them. How do you feel about this, and what are you doing against it? Also, your own armed forces tortured, raped and murdered people. And still do. You people talk a lot about moral relativism... But then you ignore your own history, past and present, of atrocities. You could try being honest about your real beliefs and intentions at least once in your lives.