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Thank you for the detailed explanation, I get the point about liquidity and traditional market makers, that makes sense. But isn't the point about HFT (at leas

by ced 11y ago

Thank you for the detailed explanation, I get the point about liquidity and traditional market makers, that makes sense. But isn't the point about HFT (at least, the part that is described in the comic) being "insider information" reasonable? Some people are willing to sell now for a low price, and some people are willing to wait longer for a better price, but I don't think anyone is unwilling to wait 1 millisecond for a significantly better price, no? Does liquidity on the millisecond scale make sense? > He's not willing to wander around hoping to find a better price in another cave. That's a service that the 2nd caveman is performing for him. I can see that, and in some contexts it's a very valuable service. But suppose I'm caveman 1. I know that CaveBob is a middleman. Everytime he comes to see me, it's because he knows something I don't, and I end up regretting my trade with him because a few hours later, I invariably realize that I could have made a much better trade. Then I'll stop trading with CaveBob, of course, and I'll naturally bump into those needing my meat a few hours later. In a stock exchange, I can't stop trading with CaveBob's, as far as I know. If a stock market without market makers and HFT rises by 5% every year, then by participating, I can hope to make as much if I'm average at trading. In a market with HFT, they will be taking part of the 5% with very low risk (through technological advantage), so it's not clear what's left, and the decision to participate is not so clear.

harryh 11y ago
> but I don't think anyone is unwilling to wait 1 millisecond for a significantly better price Two things here: 1) Is 1 penny better when trading a stock that costs $50 bucks really significant? 2) The issues is that you aren't guaranteed to be able to trade at a better price 1 millisecond from now. Maybe someone comes along and takes your price or maybe the stock moves away from you and you can never ever get that price again ever (or even the price you could have gotten from the market maker). It's a risk. And it's a risk you are free to take, or it's a risk you can pay the market maker to take for you. Your choice. > In a stock exchange, I can't stop trading with CaveBob's, as far as I know. You can absolutely stop trading with CaveBob! You can do this, as I said, by "placing a limit order that doesn't cross the spread." So if Bob is selling $STOCK for $10, and buying for $9.95 and you want to buy you can place a limit order to buy for $9.95. CaveBob won't sell to you at that price but maybe someone else will come along later to take it from you. But again, it's a risk. It's also a risk with an adverse selection problem if you think about it.
- ced 11y ago
  > You can absolutely stop trading with CaveBob! You can do this, as I said, by "placing a limit order that doesn't cross the spread." So if Bob is selling $STOCK for $10, and buying for $9.95 and you want to buy you can place a limit order to buy for $9.95. CaveBob won't sell to you at that price but maybe someone else will come along later to take it from you. Does that solve the issue? Suppose that I'm usually selling meat at 10$/kilo, but the buying side is at 9.50. Then when there's a catastrophe (some other vendor burned down), I could sell them at a higher price, 20$/kilo. If the news reach the HFT 1 millisecond before it reaches me, they can buy it at 10$ from me, then sell it at 20$/kilo for a big profit, but I would much rather have sold it at 20$/kilo myself. Is there any limit order that prevents that?
  - harryh 11y ago
    No. If you put in an order you're willing to sell at $10 (unless you notice the news about the catastrophe and cancel your order fast enough)[1], you're selling at $10. But if, instead, you just take the market price (as provided by the market maker) whenever you want to sell then as soon as the information enters the market you'll end up selling at $20 (or $19.95 or whatever). This is one of the other services that you are paying the market maker for: price discovery. If you want you can do this job on your own. You can expend a lot of effort to keep up with all the latest news so you know what price you should be selling at. Or you can let market makers all compete to buy from you at the best price taking into account all of the latest information. In your meat example, keep in mind that there isn't just one trader who will buy from you for $10 to sell at $20. They're all competing to buy from you for the best possible price so they will very very quickly bid the price up to something very very close to $20. This is why most people love market makers! If you trade with them you can be assured that you are (more or less) getting the best possible price taking into account all of the latest information. Going back to your comic, this is what's happening in frame two. The ship arriving (for some unclear reason) is changing the price of neckerchiefs. It's generally to everyone's benefit if this new information enters the market as fast as possible. Rather than thinking something shady is going on we should think this is great, and feel good about paying them a few pennies to keep the information flowing quickly. [1] Which is the exact same risk liquidity sellers normally take! This is why, in flash boys, Brad Katsuyama sees the price move when he tries to make a large trade. All the people selling liquidity are worried that there is some new piece of information they don't know about yet so they move their prices so they don't get run over. This is why you sometimes see complaints that so many orders from HFT traders are cancelled. They're constantly monitoring all kinds of news sources so that they can keep their prices accurate. The fact that they're cancelling orders isn't a sign of shadiness, it's just a sign that prices are moving.

by ced 11y ago

harryh 11y ago

> but I don't think anyone is unwilling to wait 1 millisecond for a significantly better price Two things here: 1) Is 1 penny better when trading a stock that costs $50 bucks really significant? 2) The issues is that you aren't guaranteed to be able to trade at a better price 1 millisecond from now. Maybe someone comes along and takes your price or maybe the stock moves away from you and you can never ever get that price again ever (or even the price you could have gotten from the market maker). It's a risk. And it's a risk you are free to take, or it's a risk you can pay the market maker to take for you. Your choice. > In a stock exchange, I can't stop trading with CaveBob's, as far as I know. You can absolutely stop trading with CaveBob! You can do this, as I said, by "placing a limit order that doesn't cross the spread." So if Bob is selling $STOCK for $10, and buying for $9.95 and you want to buy you can place a limit order to buy for $9.95. CaveBob won't sell to you at that price but maybe someone else will come along later to take it from you. But again, it's a risk. It's also a risk with an adverse selection problem if you think about it.

ced 11y ago
> You can absolutely stop trading with CaveBob! You can do this, as I said, by "placing a limit order that doesn't cross the spread." So if Bob is selling $STOCK for $10, and buying for $9.95 and you want to buy you can place a limit order to buy for $9.95. CaveBob won't sell to you at that price but maybe someone else will come along later to take it from you. Does that solve the issue? Suppose that I'm usually selling meat at 10$/kilo, but the buying side is at 9.50. Then when there's a catastrophe (some other vendor burned down), I could sell them at a higher price, 20$/kilo. If the news reach the HFT 1 millisecond before it reaches me, they can buy it at 10$ from me, then sell it at 20$/kilo for a big profit, but I would much rather have sold it at 20$/kilo myself. Is there any limit order that prevents that?
- harryh 11y ago
  No. If you put in an order you're willing to sell at $10 (unless you notice the news about the catastrophe and cancel your order fast enough)[1], you're selling at $10. But if, instead, you just take the market price (as provided by the market maker) whenever you want to sell then as soon as the information enters the market you'll end up selling at $20 (or $19.95 or whatever). This is one of the other services that you are paying the market maker for: price discovery. If you want you can do this job on your own. You can expend a lot of effort to keep up with all the latest news so you know what price you should be selling at. Or you can let market makers all compete to buy from you at the best price taking into account all of the latest information. In your meat example, keep in mind that there isn't just one trader who will buy from you for $10 to sell at $20. They're all competing to buy from you for the best possible price so they will very very quickly bid the price up to something very very close to $20. This is why most people love market makers! If you trade with them you can be assured that you are (more or less) getting the best possible price taking into account all of the latest information. Going back to your comic, this is what's happening in frame two. The ship arriving (for some unclear reason) is changing the price of neckerchiefs. It's generally to everyone's benefit if this new information enters the market as fast as possible. Rather than thinking something shady is going on we should think this is great, and feel good about paying them a few pennies to keep the information flowing quickly. [1] Which is the exact same risk liquidity sellers normally take! This is why, in flash boys, Brad Katsuyama sees the price move when he tries to make a large trade. All the people selling liquidity are worried that there is some new piece of information they don't know about yet so they move their prices so they don't get run over. This is why you sometimes see complaints that so many orders from HFT traders are cancelled. They're constantly monitoring all kinds of news sources so that they can keep their prices accurate. The fact that they're cancelling orders isn't a sign of shadiness, it's just a sign that prices are moving.