4 ms·

The main problem I see is that we don't look at the legal system like any other system or process; despite it's very high stakes we hold it to a very low, non-s

The main problem I see is that we don't look at the legal system like any other system or process; despite it's very high stakes we hold it to a very low, non-scientific standard of poor engineering. There are obvious solutions, or at least necessary steps to solutions, that would be implemented in any professional context (think of your own job): * Quality control: Determine and track the accuracy of your system's output. This is done for systems with much less impact than human lives and freedom; why isn't it done for our legal system? * More QC: Someone independent should be verifying the output in each case. * The results from the first two steps should be incorporated into the design of the legal system. Build quality into the system. * Accountability: If serious errors are committed (and someone being imprisoned in error is a serious error) people should be fired. Why does the DA still have a job? For reckless and negligent acts, civil and criminal lawsuits should follow. As far as I can tell, the people who operate the legal system try to do their jobs with no feedback. They go through their process and have no idea how well it has worked. Imgaine if you were told to write software like that. How can they do their jobs well even if they want to?

jacquesm 11y ago
The feedback system in place in most countries seems to have been the press, but unfortunately that's mostly historical. In the past the press did a much better job of performing their role of the 'fourth estate' than what is on display in the present. Maybe the tide will turn and the press will find a new backbone but more often than not they are in an incestuous relationship with the elements they should be critical of and this strongly diminishes their ability to provide some much needed counterweight.
- hackuser 11y ago
  > The feedback system in place in most countries seems to have been the press, but unfortunately that's mostly historical. In the past the press did a much better job of performing their role of the 'fourth estate' I'm not sure I agree that it's worse now, but I don't have any data or research. Would you happen to know of any? I think even at its best, the press doesn't have the resources to follow up on more than a tiny minority of cases.
  - jacquesm 11y ago
    > Would you happen to know of any? Reading the newspapers for the last 38 years or so is my source, I don't know what it is like where you live but the trend is very disturbing. It's all about 'access' and advertising money today and I'm fairly sure that it wasn't like that in the past (though for sure these are not absolutes, it is merely a trend that the reporting skews far more towards entertainment and embedded opinions than it does towards reporting the facts and letting people draw their own conclusions).
maxxxxx 11y ago
Compare that to medical or aviation regulations. The legal system has the potential to hurt people as much as these industries so it should have the level of regulation.
downandout 11y ago
>despite it's very high stakes we hold it to a very low, non-scientific standard of poor engineering. The problem is that nobody cares about the standard, because our society overwhelmingly feels that criminal defendants are just criminals. There is no political will to improve this situation either, as any attempt to improve the standards will be seen by voters as a "soft-on-scrime" measure designed to let more guilty people go free. Unfortunately the rights of criminal defendants are something that few people care about until they or a loved one are charged with a crime. I don't see this changing anytime soon.
- hackuser 11y ago
  There are large communities where many people are or know criminal defendants, such as poor communities in large cities. I don't understand why they don't make their voices heard.
  - marcus_holmes 11y ago
    The only way poor US communities seem to be able to get their voices heard is by rioting. There's been an entire summer of riots about injustice in the justice system. Did it change anything?
rhizome 11y ago
Much of the bad stuff in law comes from the reasonableness standard, which is inherently subjective. Each of these are apprised by specific sets of facts unique to each case. This means no QC is possible.
Spooky23 11y ago
Most of the issues that you describe are supposed to be addressed via the democratic process. Unfortunately, local races like county district attorney are increasingly one sided affairs resolved in the primary election with no real contested multi party vote. Between the democrats big tent and the erosion of the republicans in most places, democracy is in rough shape.

jacquesm 11y ago

The feedback system in place in most countries seems to have been the press, but unfortunately that's mostly historical. In the past the press did a much better job of performing their role of the 'fourth estate' than what is on display in the present. Maybe the tide will turn and the press will find a new backbone but more often than not they are in an incestuous relationship with the elements they should be critical of and this strongly diminishes their ability to provide some much needed counterweight.

hackuser 11y ago
> The feedback system in place in most countries seems to have been the press, but unfortunately that's mostly historical. In the past the press did a much better job of performing their role of the 'fourth estate' I'm not sure I agree that it's worse now, but I don't have any data or research. Would you happen to know of any? I think even at its best, the press doesn't have the resources to follow up on more than a tiny minority of cases.
- jacquesm 11y ago
  > Would you happen to know of any? Reading the newspapers for the last 38 years or so is my source, I don't know what it is like where you live but the trend is very disturbing. It's all about 'access' and advertising money today and I'm fairly sure that it wasn't like that in the past (though for sure these are not absolutes, it is merely a trend that the reporting skews far more towards entertainment and embedded opinions than it does towards reporting the facts and letting people draw their own conclusions).

maxxxxx 11y ago

Compare that to medical or aviation regulations. The legal system has the potential to hurt people as much as these industries so it should have the level of regulation.

downandout 11y ago

>despite it's very high stakes we hold it to a very low, non-scientific standard of poor engineering. The problem is that nobody cares about the standard, because our society overwhelmingly feels that criminal defendants are just criminals. There is no political will to improve this situation either, as any attempt to improve the standards will be seen by voters as a "soft-on-scrime" measure designed to let more guilty people go free. Unfortunately the rights of criminal defendants are something that few people care about until they or a loved one are charged with a crime. I don't see this changing anytime soon.

hackuser 11y ago
There are large communities where many people are or know criminal defendants, such as poor communities in large cities. I don't understand why they don't make their voices heard.
- marcus_holmes 11y ago
  The only way poor US communities seem to be able to get their voices heard is by rioting. There's been an entire summer of riots about injustice in the justice system. Did it change anything?

rhizome 11y ago

Much of the bad stuff in law comes from the reasonableness standard, which is inherently subjective. Each of these are apprised by specific sets of facts unique to each case. This means no QC is possible.

Spooky23 11y ago

Most of the issues that you describe are supposed to be addressed via the democratic process. Unfortunately, local races like county district attorney are increasingly one sided affairs resolved in the primary election with no real contested multi party vote. Between the democrats big tent and the erosion of the republicans in most places, democracy is in rough shape.