6 ms·

I believe central planning was already tested in the USSR, and in Mao's China.

by lucio 11y ago

coldtea 11y ago
One version of central planning and in quite specific initial conditions not quite favorable -- and with dictatorship like power structure to boot. And of course without modern information propagation, like with the internet, etc. There are many more versions of central planning, including in the US in various segments, western Europe etc, that have done quite well for themselves. Besides, the market has also been tested, many more times, and I wouldn't call it any great success either.
- ArkyBeagle 11y ago
  I don't claim to know the answer, but it may be that the ISIS phenomenon is what happens when you have that sort of revolution with more networking. Oh boy. Beheading videos. Markets are fine. The things they do just become furniture we don't notice any more. Most of the "evil" things capitalists get accused of are actually just not very capitalist. There are handful of Rand-influenced firms out there ( Cypress Semi comes to mind ) and they generally just aren't noteworthy. I would not defend Rand on her best day, but she at least had a mechanism that can be used - with modification - as an operating principle - don't trade greater value for lesser. Don't sell your soul. I kind of think that if we could vote our way to nirvana we'd have done it by now.
  - coldtea 11y ago
    >I don't claim to know the answer, but it may be that the ISIS phenomenon is what happens when you have that sort of revolution with more networking. Oh boy. Beheading videos. I don't think ISIS has anything to do with that -- and they don't particularly thrive on modern networking either, they're just a crude group who seized power in a power vacuum in an isolated area. They could have happened 30 or 100 years ago. Of course they use some modern means, but that's not what defines them. Besides, the ISIS guys are mostly savages in sophistication (maybe not some heads, but the ground people sure). But to put their actions in contrast there had been tons of beheadings, torture and mass murder from colonial powers from UK to France up to the late 1950s -- and those countries were supposedly the pinnacle of civilization. And not some isolated incidents either: widespread, matter of policy, and official arranged and covered up when needed. This is not to defend the former -- just to disgrace the latter the same. >Markets are fine. The things they do just become furniture we don't notice any more. Most of the "evil" things capitalists get accused of are actually just not very capitalist. The same can be said (and has been said) for "really existing socialism" like central planning -- that most of the "evil" things communists get accused of are actually just not very communist. The thing is, what's really "capitalist" is better determined by widespread actual observation on how "really existing" capitalist societies behave -- including the horrors of slavery, colonialism, segregation, military-industrial complex, wars and such -- and not by some idealistic pure "capitalism". Likewise for the communist version -- though, as I said for that we have far fewer samples, and from worse starting conditions. Even so, compared to where countries like "capitalist" Nigeria is now for example, "socialist" Czechoslovakia was paradise. And then there's the various degrees of socialism that done very well in both Western Europe and the nordic countries and the US itself (New Deal).
    - ArkyBeagle 11y ago
      I dunno - maybe I'm wrong, but I got the vibe from all the reports of the Arab Spring that it was largely built on social media for coordination. Well, the Arab Spring was a precursor to ISIS. Throw in de-Baathification policies in Iraq, and... Slavery, colonialism and to an extent militarism are hallmarks of mercantilism. And the Military Industrial Complex in the US was because people like Eisenhower saw the huge drawdowns after WWI and because now the US was left as some sort of world leader. I don't think this was mostly sought - it happened to us more than it was consciously chosen. And we were terrible at it, and some say we still are. But we had our moments. I won't pooh-pooh Nordic "socialism". It works for them. The version Canada has seems reasonable as well.These places are poorer than the US as things are measured, but it's not like they're awful places to live. What I'm doing is to an extent a "no true Scotsman" mess, but if you read Adam Smith, that's what you're left with. It's just that the ethical challenges of being transparent are difficult. People regress to wanting something more akin to Mercantilism, power by fiat.

I believe central planning was already tested in the USSR, and in Mao's China.

by lucio 11y ago

I believe central planning was already tested in the USSR, and in Mao's China.

One version of central planning and in quite specific initial conditions not quite favorable -- and with dictatorship like power structure to boot. And of course without modern information propagation, like with the internet, etc. There are many more versions of central planning, including in the US in various segments, western Europe etc, that have done quite well for themselves. Besides, the market has also been tested, many more times, and I wouldn't call it any great success either.

ArkyBeagle 11y ago
I don't claim to know the answer, but it may be that the ISIS phenomenon is what happens when you have that sort of revolution with more networking. Oh boy. Beheading videos. Markets are fine. The things they do just become furniture we don't notice any more. Most of the "evil" things capitalists get accused of are actually just not very capitalist. There are handful of Rand-influenced firms out there ( Cypress Semi comes to mind ) and they generally just aren't noteworthy. I would not defend Rand on her best day, but she at least had a mechanism that can be used - with modification - as an operating principle - don't trade greater value for lesser. Don't sell your soul. I kind of think that if we could vote our way to nirvana we'd have done it by now.
- coldtea 11y ago
  >I don't claim to know the answer, but it may be that the ISIS phenomenon is what happens when you have that sort of revolution with more networking. Oh boy. Beheading videos. I don't think ISIS has anything to do with that -- and they don't particularly thrive on modern networking either, they're just a crude group who seized power in a power vacuum in an isolated area. They could have happened 30 or 100 years ago. Of course they use some modern means, but that's not what defines them. Besides, the ISIS guys are mostly savages in sophistication (maybe not some heads, but the ground people sure). But to put their actions in contrast there had been tons of beheadings, torture and mass murder from colonial powers from UK to France up to the late 1950s -- and those countries were supposedly the pinnacle of civilization. And not some isolated incidents either: widespread, matter of policy, and official arranged and covered up when needed. This is not to defend the former -- just to disgrace the latter the same. >Markets are fine. The things they do just become furniture we don't notice any more. Most of the "evil" things capitalists get accused of are actually just not very capitalist. The same can be said (and has been said) for "really existing socialism" like central planning -- that most of the "evil" things communists get accused of are actually just not very communist. The thing is, what's really "capitalist" is better determined by widespread actual observation on how "really existing" capitalist societies behave -- including the horrors of slavery, colonialism, segregation, military-industrial complex, wars and such -- and not by some idealistic pure "capitalism". Likewise for the communist version -- though, as I said for that we have far fewer samples, and from worse starting conditions. Even so, compared to where countries like "capitalist" Nigeria is now for example, "socialist" Czechoslovakia was paradise. And then there's the various degrees of socialism that done very well in both Western Europe and the nordic countries and the US itself (New Deal).
  - ArkyBeagle 11y ago
    I dunno - maybe I'm wrong, but I got the vibe from all the reports of the Arab Spring that it was largely built on social media for coordination. Well, the Arab Spring was a precursor to ISIS. Throw in de-Baathification policies in Iraq, and... Slavery, colonialism and to an extent militarism are hallmarks of mercantilism. And the Military Industrial Complex in the US was because people like Eisenhower saw the huge drawdowns after WWI and because now the US was left as some sort of world leader. I don't think this was mostly sought - it happened to us more than it was consciously chosen. And we were terrible at it, and some say we still are. But we had our moments. I won't pooh-pooh Nordic "socialism". It works for them. The version Canada has seems reasonable as well.These places are poorer than the US as things are measured, but it's not like they're awful places to live. What I'm doing is to an extent a "no true Scotsman" mess, but if you read Adam Smith, that's what you're left with. It's just that the ethical challenges of being transparent are difficult. People regress to wanting something more akin to Mercantilism, power by fiat.