4 ms·

Unfortunately, your logic is based on a faulty premise. It's not the goal of the american justice system to fairly enforce the law and to rehabilitate criminals

by gizmo 11y ago

Unfortunately, your logic is based on a faulty premise. It's not the goal of the american justice system to fairly enforce the law and to rehabilitate criminals so they can reenter society. The evidence that the current "tough on crime" approach doesn't work is utterly overwhelming, but that doesn't matter in the least if building a more just society isn't the goal in the first place. The reality is that the justice system is two-tiered. As long as powerful people don't get crushed by the system there's no real incentive for them to enact change. The American public is convinced only real criminals get treated inhumanely; it can't possibly happen to them. So they don't demand change from their politicians. And so the cycle of police abuse, minimum sentencing laws, plea bargains and other brutality continues. The victims of the system are utterly expendable economically, and the public doesn't care or even notice what's going on. See for instance "With Liberty and Justice for Some", by Greenwald (the guy who published the Snowden leaks)

everyone 11y ago
Its not just lack of motivation for justice. Theres a positive motivation from the burgeoning prison-industrial-complex to keep as many people in prison for as long as possible. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison%E2%80%93industrial_complex https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison%E2%80%93industrial_comp... Its big business, and its lobbying power and political clout continues to grow exponentially (if they get harsher laws and penalties enacted then they get more inmates and their business grows, allowing them greater lobbying power, and so on) Its one of those seemingly insane systems that can develop over time but is very hard to stop as it has so much momentum and involved parties. Theres plenty of other examples in the US like food production and energy etc.
- gizmo 11y ago
  It's still the indifference of society at large that allows the prison complex to go wild. In all areas of society there are incentives that are completely at odds with the common good, but there's a huge difference between countries to what organizations are allowed to do for personal gain. I agree that once you get to the point where politicians are bought and paid for, as well as the media and all educational institutions it's very hard to stop. Democracy has been hollowed out. Don't vote Kang. Vote Kodos!
  - everyone 11y ago
    I think the US is really feeling the effects of having its anti-trust laws gutted a few decades ago. I wouldnt despair though, in the late 19th century you had a similar situation with so called robber-barons and through consistent grassroots action anti-trust laws and other socal reforms were enacted. Making a fairer society takes a lot of hard work over a long time (and constant vigilance) but its been shown to be possible many times even against seemingly insurmountable odds. ps. I'd recommend that documentary film 'the corporation' from 2003.
    - gizmo 11y ago
      I'm not so sure I share your optimism. Just because we dodged the last two bullets doesn't mean we'll dodge the next one. Countries can (and do) slide into totalitarianism and today's technology can be used to create a dystopia bleaker than anything the world has ever seen. It's tempting to look at history as some sort of heroic epic. Times are bleak, people struggle, but ultimately human ingenuity and sacrifice wins the day. Real life isn't like that. If we mess up badly enough it's just game over. There is no Game Master that will put humanity back on track to ensure a positive outcome. Complete failure is always an option, and if we take for granted that all problems are fixable then sooner or later we'll run into a problem that isn't.
      - everyone 11y ago
        All true. But one must try! By saying dont despair that is all I really meant, do not despair. The people who suceeded in the past certainly tried. Even just setting a good personal example is a step, if everyone did that the problem would be fixed, and you may inspire those around you in subtle ways. Globally humans are facing some of the biggest threats in history, looming food and water shortages and the resultant wars (possibly nuclear) Jared Diamond in his fantastic book 'Collapse' describes well documented examples of societies that completely collapsed in the past, and we are now globally facing many of the same set of factors that felled them. However he also presents positive examples of societies predicting serious problems and systematically taking steps to prevent them, for example the problems of deforestation in Germany and Japan were arrested and they established sustainable forestry.
vijayr 11y ago
The attitude of American public about criminals is also not great. For example, it is appalling how common male prison rape jokes are in the US (in movies, in everyday conversations etc) - how can one joke about it, I don't understand. These jokes aren't as common in other western countries. Most people don't seem to have any compassion for criminals at all, regardless of the circumstances in which those crimes were committed. Add to this no one would hire an ex con - even a non violent one. It is not just the powerful people, everyone's attitude needs to change towards this problem. The US has more than a fifth of world's prison population. It is a serious problem, something needs to change.

by gizmo 11y ago

everyone 11y ago

Its not just lack of motivation for justice. Theres a positive motivation from the burgeoning prison-industrial-complex to keep as many people in prison for as long as possible. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison%E2%80%93industrial_complex https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison%E2%80%93industrial_comp... Its big business, and its lobbying power and political clout continues to grow exponentially (if they get harsher laws and penalties enacted then they get more inmates and their business grows, allowing them greater lobbying power, and so on) Its one of those seemingly insane systems that can develop over time but is very hard to stop as it has so much momentum and involved parties. Theres plenty of other examples in the US like food production and energy etc.

gizmo 11y ago
It's still the indifference of society at large that allows the prison complex to go wild. In all areas of society there are incentives that are completely at odds with the common good, but there's a huge difference between countries to what organizations are allowed to do for personal gain. I agree that once you get to the point where politicians are bought and paid for, as well as the media and all educational institutions it's very hard to stop. Democracy has been hollowed out. Don't vote Kang. Vote Kodos!
- everyone 11y ago
  I think the US is really feeling the effects of having its anti-trust laws gutted a few decades ago. I wouldnt despair though, in the late 19th century you had a similar situation with so called robber-barons and through consistent grassroots action anti-trust laws and other socal reforms were enacted. Making a fairer society takes a lot of hard work over a long time (and constant vigilance) but its been shown to be possible many times even against seemingly insurmountable odds. ps. I'd recommend that documentary film 'the corporation' from 2003.
  - gizmo 11y ago
    I'm not so sure I share your optimism. Just because we dodged the last two bullets doesn't mean we'll dodge the next one. Countries can (and do) slide into totalitarianism and today's technology can be used to create a dystopia bleaker than anything the world has ever seen. It's tempting to look at history as some sort of heroic epic. Times are bleak, people struggle, but ultimately human ingenuity and sacrifice wins the day. Real life isn't like that. If we mess up badly enough it's just game over. There is no Game Master that will put humanity back on track to ensure a positive outcome. Complete failure is always an option, and if we take for granted that all problems are fixable then sooner or later we'll run into a problem that isn't.
    - everyone 11y ago
      All true. But one must try! By saying dont despair that is all I really meant, do not despair. The people who suceeded in the past certainly tried. Even just setting a good personal example is a step, if everyone did that the problem would be fixed, and you may inspire those around you in subtle ways. Globally humans are facing some of the biggest threats in history, looming food and water shortages and the resultant wars (possibly nuclear) Jared Diamond in his fantastic book 'Collapse' describes well documented examples of societies that completely collapsed in the past, and we are now globally facing many of the same set of factors that felled them. However he also presents positive examples of societies predicting serious problems and systematically taking steps to prevent them, for example the problems of deforestation in Germany and Japan were arrested and they established sustainable forestry.

vijayr 11y ago

The attitude of American public about criminals is also not great. For example, it is appalling how common male prison rape jokes are in the US (in movies, in everyday conversations etc) - how can one joke about it, I don't understand. These jokes aren't as common in other western countries. Most people don't seem to have any compassion for criminals at all, regardless of the circumstances in which those crimes were committed. Add to this no one would hire an ex con - even a non violent one. It is not just the powerful people, everyone's attitude needs to change towards this problem. The US has more than a fifth of world's prison population. It is a serious problem, something needs to change.