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It seems pretty clear that the captain wasn't dismissing the helpfulness but rather dismissing Clemans' authority to deploy the project. It's a power play, and

by ihsw 11y ago

It seems pretty clear that the captain wasn't dismissing the helpfulness but rather dismissing Clemans' authority to deploy the project. It's a power play, and Clemans' disdain for rigid power structures clearly contributed to the friction between him and the SPD administration. EDIT: the captain's response is not unwarranted at all. Emergency response call centers are a critical public resource and he is ultimately in charge of them.

btilly 11y ago
What is worse, it is not even clear that the captain is entirely wrong here. If Clemans screwed up, he had the potential to have 911 calls be routed to /dev/null. If he succeeded, the department became more efficient. However the 911 system is already working "well enough". Therefore in terms of outside perception any win will be small, and disasters could be huge. He is not the one who has been give the authority to make this kind of risk decision. The captain is. If Clemans screwed up, the captain would be the one getting fired. Keeping the captain out of the loop is irresponsible. It doesn't matter that it worked. It doesn't matter how good the system is. You need to work with stakeholders, and not behind their backs. However Clemans seems like the kind of person who can never understand this point.
- ihsw 11y ago
  Never is a strong word, I think it's too strong. You are absolutely correct that he had no authority to perform modifications to a critical public service, and that his actions bordered on reckless and negligent and that his response to the captain's accusations was cringe-worthy as well as indicative of the ignorance of his actions, but I think it stands to reason that the captain could have handled the situation more diplomatically. Granted, I would probably get into a shouting match with Clemans for what he did (and I'm just another developer), but that hardly justifies barring him from entering the premises until further notice. Clemans' actions can be chalked up to youthful ignorance and exuberance, whereas the captain has no excuse. He is the central source of truth and the ultimate arbiter in the situation, he should know better than to react so aggressively to one of his own staff members.
  - CountSessine 11y ago
    Clemans' actions can be chalked up to youthful ignorance and exuberance, whereas the captain has no excuse. He is the central source of truth and the ultimate arbiter in the situation, he should know better than to react so aggressively to one of his own staff members. React aggressively to some aspergers-afflicted kid cavalierly modifying and possibly breaking a public emergency response system with an expected uptime of always? The captain's response was 100% measured and appropriate given the situation.
    - aeorgnoieang 11y ago
      How do you know Clemans has Aspergers?
      - williamstein 11y ago
        He definitely does NOT have aspergers. (Know him personally.)
    - dang 11y ago
      > some aspergers-afflicted kid You can't attack someone personally like that on HN—not that this would be shameful if it were true, but you clearly intend it as a slur, and that's not allowed here. Please comment civilly and substantively or not at all. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- sleepybrett 11y ago
  Clememns is in the comments explaining how the system worked. He just reads the current calls out of a database and displays them with some highlighting. There is no write.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - throwawaymaroon 11y ago
    ... until the connection pool is misconfigured or something and the writes can't get in. Touching mission critical things always has risk and those risks have to be mitigated at a political level. If the programmer is this bad at respecting political ownership of responsibility, he has no business touching production this way.
  - foobarian 11y ago
    Not only that but from his other comments, the problem wasn't this particular system, but similar projects going forward.
vijayr 11y ago
Not saying Clemans is right, but couldn't the captain have handled it better, instead of just banning him from the building? We have a talented, enthusiastic, but inexperienced youth on one side and a police captain (whose job by definition is to handle all kinds of personalities) on the other - he could have used a bit more patience and tact in explaining, containing Clemans instead of just throwing him out of the building. The cops lost more than Clemans here.
- gopowerranger 11y ago
  He "blew up," yelling and cursing at Rasmussen. He remembers saying to Rasmussen, "I'm going to PDR [public disclosure request] the shit out of you." And you want to say the PD could have handled that better? Go into your boss right now and do the same thing. Let us know how he handled that from the unemployment line.
  - vijayr 11y ago
    Again, I am not saying Clemans isn't wrong. That said - I work for a private firm, not even remotely as crucial as the police dept. cops are trained to deal with all kinds of situations/personalities (my boss is not). The captain could've banned him for a month, instead of permanently. After both of them have cooled down, he could've sat him down and explained that shouting isn't going to help. He could've given him warnings etc. Instead, he seems to have gone on a power trip. Clemans is not some destructive guy, or some criminal. He is just a frustrated over enthusiastic young man. The real losers in this are the people of Seattle. I hope some other police dept hires him and also he learns to control himself better.
mcguire 11y ago
"However, not long afterward, according to Clemans, longtime SPD captain Ron Rasmussen complained in a meeting that all changes in the center had to go through him. Rasmussen dismissed the usefulness of the highlighter program, Clemans said."

by ihsw 11y ago

btilly 11y ago

What is worse, it is not even clear that the captain is entirely wrong here. If Clemans screwed up, he had the potential to have 911 calls be routed to /dev/null. If he succeeded, the department became more efficient. However the 911 system is already working "well enough". Therefore in terms of outside perception any win will be small, and disasters could be huge. He is not the one who has been give the authority to make this kind of risk decision. The captain is. If Clemans screwed up, the captain would be the one getting fired. Keeping the captain out of the loop is irresponsible. It doesn't matter that it worked. It doesn't matter how good the system is. You need to work with stakeholders, and not behind their backs. However Clemans seems like the kind of person who can never understand this point.

ihsw 11y ago
Never is a strong word, I think it's too strong. You are absolutely correct that he had no authority to perform modifications to a critical public service, and that his actions bordered on reckless and negligent and that his response to the captain's accusations was cringe-worthy as well as indicative of the ignorance of his actions, but I think it stands to reason that the captain could have handled the situation more diplomatically. Granted, I would probably get into a shouting match with Clemans for what he did (and I'm just another developer), but that hardly justifies barring him from entering the premises until further notice. Clemans' actions can be chalked up to youthful ignorance and exuberance, whereas the captain has no excuse. He is the central source of truth and the ultimate arbiter in the situation, he should know better than to react so aggressively to one of his own staff members.
- CountSessine 11y ago
  Clemans' actions can be chalked up to youthful ignorance and exuberance, whereas the captain has no excuse. He is the central source of truth and the ultimate arbiter in the situation, he should know better than to react so aggressively to one of his own staff members. React aggressively to some aspergers-afflicted kid cavalierly modifying and possibly breaking a public emergency response system with an expected uptime of always? The captain's response was 100% measured and appropriate given the situation.
  - aeorgnoieang 11y ago
    How do you know Clemans has Aspergers?
    - williamstein 11y ago
      He definitely does NOT have aspergers. (Know him personally.)
  - dang 11y ago
    > some aspergers-afflicted kid You can't attack someone personally like that on HN—not that this would be shameful if it were true, but you clearly intend it as a slur, and that's not allowed here. Please comment civilly and substantively or not at all. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
sleepybrett 11y ago
Clememns is in the comments explaining how the system worked. He just reads the current calls out of a database and displays them with some highlighting. There is no write.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- throwawaymaroon 11y ago
  ... until the connection pool is misconfigured or something and the writes can't get in. Touching mission critical things always has risk and those risks have to be mitigated at a political level. If the programmer is this bad at respecting political ownership of responsibility, he has no business touching production this way.
- foobarian 11y ago
  Not only that but from his other comments, the problem wasn't this particular system, but similar projects going forward.

vijayr 11y ago

Not saying Clemans is right, but couldn't the captain have handled it better, instead of just banning him from the building? We have a talented, enthusiastic, but inexperienced youth on one side and a police captain (whose job by definition is to handle all kinds of personalities) on the other - he could have used a bit more patience and tact in explaining, containing Clemans instead of just throwing him out of the building. The cops lost more than Clemans here.

gopowerranger 11y ago
He "blew up," yelling and cursing at Rasmussen. He remembers saying to Rasmussen, "I'm going to PDR [public disclosure request] the shit out of you." And you want to say the PD could have handled that better? Go into your boss right now and do the same thing. Let us know how he handled that from the unemployment line.
- vijayr 11y ago
  Again, I am not saying Clemans isn't wrong. That said - I work for a private firm, not even remotely as crucial as the police dept. cops are trained to deal with all kinds of situations/personalities (my boss is not). The captain could've banned him for a month, instead of permanently. After both of them have cooled down, he could've sat him down and explained that shouting isn't going to help. He could've given him warnings etc. Instead, he seems to have gone on a power trip. Clemans is not some destructive guy, or some criminal. He is just a frustrated over enthusiastic young man. The real losers in this are the people of Seattle. I hope some other police dept hires him and also he learns to control himself better.

mcguire 11y ago

"However, not long afterward, according to Clemans, longtime SPD captain Ron Rasmussen complained in a meeting that all changes in the center had to go through him. Rasmussen dismissed the usefulness of the highlighter program, Clemans said."