4 ms·

> My point boils down to the observation that humans were one of the apex predators. Yes, but did they increase or decrease the surrounding biodiversity?

dalke 11y ago
It depends on how you want to view the question. Compared to before the Pleistocene? Humans decreased biodiversity. But if rewilding is meant in the pre-Columbian sense, then the hypothetical would be to compare the ecology in the year 1400 had humans in the Americans died out in, say, the year 900. We simply don't know the answer to that, that I know of in my limited understanding. We do know that human fire practices change the landscape. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Yellowstone_Ecosystem#Ecosystem_management_by_species https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Yellowstone_Ecosystem#... mentions the decline of quaking aspen, and how one of the factors may be fire-return intervals. Humans have long used fire to clear out underbrush, but I really know so little of archaeology or related fields. So in that case? Humans may have help prevent biodiversity reduction. I can point towards Australia as an example of a longer-term ecosystem adaptation for human fire practices. The general belief is that "Burn-offs or small, cool fires were thought to be used by Aboriginal people both for hunting and for the prevention of larger fires" and "most Australian plants wouldn't be distributed around the country the way that they are now if people hadn't burned-off the land through history." - http://www.australiangeographic.com.au/news/2010/12/aboriginal-burn-off-theory-hosed-down/ http://www.australiangeographic.com.au/news/2010/12/aborigin... That's not saying there was more or less biodiversity, only that there are different ecosystem patterns with and without human. But I don't see how it's possible to compare biodiversity when there's been 10,000+ or 50,000+ years of ecosystem adaption. Is there less biodiversity in North and South America because of the Great American Interchange? Should pre-Panamanian land bridge be our goal once we've restored the Pleistocene era ecology? There had to be a goal besides "improved biodiversity." My goal, btw, is to point out that humans are part of the ecology.
- astigsen 11y ago
  > My goal, btw, is to point out that humans are part of the ecology. We should not forget that, but the interesting question would be if introducing more humans into the environment _now_ would increase or decrease the biodiversity. There might be ways of living for humans that would increase the biodiversity around them (as you pointed out aborigines may have done in the past), but would anyone wish (or be capable of) living like that today? If there is no realistic prospect that the introduction of more (of todays) humans into the environment will increase the biodiversity, then it might be better to focus on other factors that could help.
  - dalke 11y ago
    > "but would anyone wish (or be capable of) living like that today?" That's not the only possibility. We could re-create some of the aspects, like fire clearing, without actually living that lifestyle. We do part of that already though hunting licenses as proxy other predators. But more people will pay to hunt, or get involved in hunting, than setting fires. (Fire is an easy example, which is why I mention it. Park policies before the 1970s were to suppress all fires.) If my (uneducated) view is right, that means accepting that there is a required base level of required involvement, in perpetuity, while the rewilding articles I've read suggest that involvement will go to zero. BTW, after a lot of searching, I found a paper related to this topic. http://www.academia.edu/9495040/The_People_in_Yellowstone_Reassessing_a_National_Park http://www.academia.edu/9495040/The_People_in_Yellowstone_Re... . Based on this snippet: > Yet, what is omitted in these landscape descriptions, and what is too often overlooked in telling the story of Yellowstone, is the central ecological niche filled by humans. I thought it would go into more of the actual ecology, but does no. It does describe how the Sheepeater history has been downplayed, and suggests that: > Re-opening Yellowstone to full-time Native American presence would restore some justice to the history of the land as well as open up new opportunities to learn together about sustainable modes of living and stewarding the land in a cooperative way. giving as examples "the Diné (Navajo) at Canyon de Chelly in the Grand Canyon and the Oglala Sioux in the Badlands." http://www.amazon.com/Restoring-Presence-American-Yellowstone-National/dp/0806135891 http://www.amazon.com/Restoring-Presence-American-Yellowston... appears to also go into related details, but I don't know what. So an answer to your question of who might live there, with limit on what they can do, might be the descendants of the Native Americans who were kicked out. At this point I have no more to add. Thanks for the conversation!

dalke 11y ago

It depends on how you want to view the question. Compared to before the Pleistocene? Humans decreased biodiversity. But if rewilding is meant in the pre-Columbian sense, then the hypothetical would be to compare the ecology in the year 1400 had humans in the Americans died out in, say, the year 900. We simply don't know the answer to that, that I know of in my limited understanding. We do know that human fire practices change the landscape. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Yellowstone_Ecosystem#Ecosystem_management_by_species https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Yellowstone_Ecosystem#... mentions the decline of quaking aspen, and how one of the factors may be fire-return intervals. Humans have long used fire to clear out underbrush, but I really know so little of archaeology or related fields. So in that case? Humans may have help prevent biodiversity reduction. I can point towards Australia as an example of a longer-term ecosystem adaptation for human fire practices. The general belief is that "Burn-offs or small, cool fires were thought to be used by Aboriginal people both for hunting and for the prevention of larger fires" and "most Australian plants wouldn't be distributed around the country the way that they are now if people hadn't burned-off the land through history." - http://www.australiangeographic.com.au/news/2010/12/aboriginal-burn-off-theory-hosed-down/ http://www.australiangeographic.com.au/news/2010/12/aborigin... That's not saying there was more or less biodiversity, only that there are different ecosystem patterns with and without human. But I don't see how it's possible to compare biodiversity when there's been 10,000+ or 50,000+ years of ecosystem adaption. Is there less biodiversity in North and South America because of the Great American Interchange? Should pre-Panamanian land bridge be our goal once we've restored the Pleistocene era ecology? There had to be a goal besides "improved biodiversity." My goal, btw, is to point out that humans are part of the ecology.

astigsen 11y ago
> My goal, btw, is to point out that humans are part of the ecology. We should not forget that, but the interesting question would be if introducing more humans into the environment _now_ would increase or decrease the biodiversity. There might be ways of living for humans that would increase the biodiversity around them (as you pointed out aborigines may have done in the past), but would anyone wish (or be capable of) living like that today? If there is no realistic prospect that the introduction of more (of todays) humans into the environment will increase the biodiversity, then it might be better to focus on other factors that could help.
- dalke 11y ago
  > "but would anyone wish (or be capable of) living like that today?" That's not the only possibility. We could re-create some of the aspects, like fire clearing, without actually living that lifestyle. We do part of that already though hunting licenses as proxy other predators. But more people will pay to hunt, or get involved in hunting, than setting fires. (Fire is an easy example, which is why I mention it. Park policies before the 1970s were to suppress all fires.) If my (uneducated) view is right, that means accepting that there is a required base level of required involvement, in perpetuity, while the rewilding articles I've read suggest that involvement will go to zero. BTW, after a lot of searching, I found a paper related to this topic. http://www.academia.edu/9495040/The_People_in_Yellowstone_Reassessing_a_National_Park http://www.academia.edu/9495040/The_People_in_Yellowstone_Re... . Based on this snippet: > Yet, what is omitted in these landscape descriptions, and what is too often overlooked in telling the story of Yellowstone, is the central ecological niche filled by humans. I thought it would go into more of the actual ecology, but does no. It does describe how the Sheepeater history has been downplayed, and suggests that: > Re-opening Yellowstone to full-time Native American presence would restore some justice to the history of the land as well as open up new opportunities to learn together about sustainable modes of living and stewarding the land in a cooperative way. giving as examples "the Diné (Navajo) at Canyon de Chelly in the Grand Canyon and the Oglala Sioux in the Badlands." http://www.amazon.com/Restoring-Presence-American-Yellowstone-National/dp/0806135891 http://www.amazon.com/Restoring-Presence-American-Yellowston... appears to also go into related details, but I don't know what. So an answer to your question of who might live there, with limit on what they can do, might be the descendants of the Native Americans who were kicked out. At this point I have no more to add. Thanks for the conversation!