7 ms·

Inside Yubikey Neo

94 points by tasqa 11y ago

vessenes 11y ago
I like how polite Yubi and Hexview are in this exchange; a breath of fresh air from an infosec company engaging with a security company! Makes me feel like there are grown-ups both places, and that the work will help Yubi in future iterations.
justhere4beer 11y ago
Hard to take your article seriously with statements such as "...Levels 1 and 2 of the FIPS140-2 certification are just a marketing gimmick". Even harder to believe Jakob took the time to respond.
- gruez 11y ago
  Hexview provided their reason for believing that. Care to explain why you think otherwise?
  - nickodell 11y ago
    Original quote: >That is not a big deal, considering that Levels 1 and 2 of the FIPS140-2 certification are just a marketing gimmick for most electronic devices. They have a point here: technically, the iPhone is FIPS140-1/2 compliant. By itself, that doesn't mean that the device is secure. It does show two important requirements for security.
    - justhere4beer 11y ago
      FIPS isn't trivial. There is a lot of shit crypto on the market, establishing FIPS is not banal. Regardless of FIPS, if not utilized properly, it protects nothing. If utilized correctly, it protects what it needs to. Discounting it show lack of understanding.
    - justhere4beer 11y ago
      A little education goes a long way: http://csrc.nist.gov/groups/STM/cmvp/ http://csrc.nist.gov/groups/STM/cmvp/
- detaro 11y ago
  They state they believe the device fulfils these requirements, it just isn't certified. And for many customers, it doesn't matter if it actually has the piece of paper to prove it or not.
Luc 11y ago
That's a lot of text to say nothing of interest. I really love how they question the trade offs made in the PCB design, as if these things didn't occur to the designers.
- spectralblu 11y ago
  Disappointed that they did nothing to probe the onboard MCUs to see if they could get it to leak anything, and just dismissed that with "we expect it to get high marks there." This seems an awfully low quality report from an infosec company. I was hoping to see an audit of the controllers onboard to see if (and if so, how much effort) they can extract onboard secrets, because after all that's the whole purpose of this device, to act as a secrets repository.
  - detaro 11y ago
    First line of the page: Yubikey is a curiosity-driven side project for us and we have plans to dig a bit further into hardware as time permits. If anybody could confidentially help with NXP datasheets, it would be much appreciated. I guess they could have waited until they had more to publish it, but I found it interesting regardless
    - danielvf 11y ago
      NXP processor manuals and datasheets are on NXP's website. Just google for "13xx User Manual". Here's a link to 13xx series user manual[1] (I've just finished a year working on an embedded project using NXP 13xx series processors, and NXP's documentation is top notch.) [1] http://www.nxp.com/documents/user_manual/UM10375.pdf http://www.nxp.com/documents/user_manual/UM10375.pdf
- jonknee 11y ago
  I found it interesting since as a user you can't see the PCB. Of course the designers knew about the tradeoffs, it's just nice to know what those tradeoffs were.
- Niten 11y ago
niels_olson 11y ago
I accidentally ran over my Yubikey with my Honda Accord, on a key ring with a fin key (1). I dusted it off and it works fine 6 months later. Seriously, if you're in a position where you're using a Yubikey, getting another Yubikey isn't that big a deal for the organization. In fact, if you're a solo practitioner using something like Yubikey, I recommend you get another one and just keep it in a lock box in the event you, say, run over the primary with your car :) (1) http://www.amazon.com/FCS-Moulded-Steel-Fin-Key/dp/B003JCQPXM http://www.amazon.com/FCS-Moulded-Steel-Fin-Key/dp/B003JCQPX...
- malandrew 11y ago
  It's actually recommended that you get two yubikeys and connect both to every account and keep the backup safe.
dombili 11y ago
Off-topic, but I came across this tweet today. https://twitter.com/flexlibris/status/660108123487789056 https://twitter.com/flexlibris/status/660108123487789056 > TSA at Boston airport tried to take my Yubikeys away from me to a second location "for a test". I refused & they backed off but FYI people. If you have your Yubikeys with you while traveling, you might want to be careful.
- SystemOut 11y ago
  Why wouldn't you take them with you while traveling? The whole point is to use them as part of your authentication chain.
  - dombili 11y ago
    You clearly misread or didn't read my comment because I didn't say anything about not taking your Yubikeys with you while traveling. >The whole point is to use them as part of your authentication chain. I know and that's exactly why I said you might want to be careful with them while traveling. If your keys are taken away from you and you don't have any backup solution (such as recovery keys), you will get locked out of your important accounts.
ChuckMcM 11y ago
Nice article, would be interesting to build something that HexView did, in fact, find "nearly indestructible". Full disclosure I'm a fan of the Yubikey, I think that something like it will be the future of operational security for networks. Requiring the key be present to answer challenges helps a lot.
kweks 11y ago
It seems that hardware breakdowns inevitably place a 'raw materials' costing to ojects broken down, often (but less in this instance) - as a somewhat passive-agressive dig at the company: "They sell it for $50, but it's only got $10 worth of components in it!" Outside of the obvious external costs (development, transport, overheads, import, profit, etc), PCB + Tooling costs are often wildly underestimated. For reference, a PCB of this size requires a setup + stencil template, which would run ~ 400 - 500 USD. Tooling for the plastic injection mold for this piece would run around 5000 USD, and each subsequent piece would probably cost around 10 - 50c USD. Tooling + PCBA done right have significant upfront costs that often seem to be forgotten.
- nickpsecurity 11y ago
  To support your point, most of the delays in the JackPair Kickstarter involve tooling for the casing. The recent one admits they should've talked to an expert before they even settled on the prototype because they had no idea how much trouble it would cause at manufacturing time. Hence, the popularity of the Design for Manufacturing concept these days...
  - kweks 11y ago
    Tooling and injection molding is an arcane art. Most people would be amazed to realise that the tooling to make even the yubikey would probably be around 45cm x 45cm of (almost) solid steel block. They'd be probably even more surprised to find that it'd cost 10k - 15k to make the tooling. Diagnosing / 'debugging' issues with injection molding is incredibly difficult - again - it's almost black magic, and it's sadly a skill that's getting harder and harder to find. If you cast your eyes around your desk / room, we see molded plastic parts every where - so we make the assumption that they must be cheap and easy to do. And indeed - the assumption of facility due to availability is a very common trap that many kickstart projects fall into. It's harder to scaffold and pivot in real life ;)
    - nickpsecurity 11y ago
      I believe it. Sounds like a market rife for disruption by people that can turn it into a cookbook approach on the cheap. More interesting from a security angle: malicious tooling on packaging side might be used to pre-compromise chips or devices. I haven't seen anyone write on that and I've had to little time to do a paper on it. I'm sure there's a whole cat and mouse game waiting on us that the cats are probably already playing. ;)
j_s 11y ago
Read a much more detailed security review of the Yubikey as it works in practice here: http://www.unrest.ca/yubico-reinvents-the-yubikey http://www.unrest.ca/yubico-reinvents-the-yubikey
beagle3 11y ago
While we're at it .. are there any other tokens/smartcards that could be used for signing messages (ECC preferable, RSA acceptable)? I only know of YubiKey and the KernelConcepts PGPcard.
- watersb 11y ago
  I have the Github-branded YubiKey, as well as another U2F FIDO key that I purchased last year from Plug-Up. But now PlugUp web site, http://pu1.fr http://pu1.fr, redirects to a trendy, rebranded site that I can't get to work. So I don't know if that vendor exists anymore. I am excited about YubiCo products. The key I have Just Works, looks and feels very well-made.
- X-Cubed 11y ago
  Nitrokey is another one: https://www.nitrokey.com/ https://www.nitrokey.com/
  - beagle3 11y ago
    Thanks. Nitrokey looks nice. I'll have to look deeper into the github repo to see what it actually supports in hardware though - the website does not mention the smartcard standards that are actually supported.
    - jans23 11y ago
      Nitrokey Pro uses the OpenPGP Card, Nitrokey HSM uses the SmartCard-HSM.

94 points by tasqa 11y ago

I like how polite Yubi and Hexview are in this exchange; a breath of fresh air from an infosec company engaging with a security company! Makes me feel like there are grown-ups both places, and that the work will help Yubi in future iterations.

justhere4beer 11y ago

Hard to take your article seriously with statements such as "...Levels 1 and 2 of the FIPS140-2 certification are just a marketing gimmick". Even harder to believe Jakob took the time to respond.

gruez 11y ago
Hexview provided their reason for believing that. Care to explain why you think otherwise?
- nickodell 11y ago
  Original quote: >That is not a big deal, considering that Levels 1 and 2 of the FIPS140-2 certification are just a marketing gimmick for most electronic devices. They have a point here: technically, the iPhone is FIPS140-1/2 compliant. By itself, that doesn't mean that the device is secure. It does show two important requirements for security.
  - justhere4beer 11y ago
    FIPS isn't trivial. There is a lot of shit crypto on the market, establishing FIPS is not banal. Regardless of FIPS, if not utilized properly, it protects nothing. If utilized correctly, it protects what it needs to. Discounting it show lack of understanding.
  - justhere4beer 11y ago
    A little education goes a long way: http://csrc.nist.gov/groups/STM/cmvp/ http://csrc.nist.gov/groups/STM/cmvp/
detaro 11y ago
They state they believe the device fulfils these requirements, it just isn't certified. And for many customers, it doesn't matter if it actually has the piece of paper to prove it or not.

Luc 11y ago

That's a lot of text to say nothing of interest. I really love how they question the trade offs made in the PCB design, as if these things didn't occur to the designers.

spectralblu 11y ago
Disappointed that they did nothing to probe the onboard MCUs to see if they could get it to leak anything, and just dismissed that with "we expect it to get high marks there." This seems an awfully low quality report from an infosec company. I was hoping to see an audit of the controllers onboard to see if (and if so, how much effort) they can extract onboard secrets, because after all that's the whole purpose of this device, to act as a secrets repository.
- detaro 11y ago
  First line of the page: Yubikey is a curiosity-driven side project for us and we have plans to dig a bit further into hardware as time permits. If anybody could confidentially help with NXP datasheets, it would be much appreciated. I guess they could have waited until they had more to publish it, but I found it interesting regardless
  - danielvf 11y ago
    NXP processor manuals and datasheets are on NXP's website. Just google for "13xx User Manual". Here's a link to 13xx series user manual[1] (I've just finished a year working on an embedded project using NXP 13xx series processors, and NXP's documentation is top notch.) [1] http://www.nxp.com/documents/user_manual/UM10375.pdf http://www.nxp.com/documents/user_manual/UM10375.pdf
jonknee 11y ago
I found it interesting since as a user you can't see the PCB. Of course the designers knew about the tradeoffs, it's just nice to know what those tradeoffs were.
Niten 11y ago

niels_olson 11y ago

I accidentally ran over my Yubikey with my Honda Accord, on a key ring with a fin key (1). I dusted it off and it works fine 6 months later. Seriously, if you're in a position where you're using a Yubikey, getting another Yubikey isn't that big a deal for the organization. In fact, if you're a solo practitioner using something like Yubikey, I recommend you get another one and just keep it in a lock box in the event you, say, run over the primary with your car :) (1) http://www.amazon.com/FCS-Moulded-Steel-Fin-Key/dp/B003JCQPXM http://www.amazon.com/FCS-Moulded-Steel-Fin-Key/dp/B003JCQPX...

malandrew 11y ago
It's actually recommended that you get two yubikeys and connect both to every account and keep the backup safe.

dombili 11y ago

Off-topic, but I came across this tweet today. https://twitter.com/flexlibris/status/660108123487789056 https://twitter.com/flexlibris/status/660108123487789056 > TSA at Boston airport tried to take my Yubikeys away from me to a second location "for a test". I refused & they backed off but FYI people. If you have your Yubikeys with you while traveling, you might want to be careful.

SystemOut 11y ago
Why wouldn't you take them with you while traveling? The whole point is to use them as part of your authentication chain.
- dombili 11y ago
  You clearly misread or didn't read my comment because I didn't say anything about not taking your Yubikeys with you while traveling. >The whole point is to use them as part of your authentication chain. I know and that's exactly why I said you might want to be careful with them while traveling. If your keys are taken away from you and you don't have any backup solution (such as recovery keys), you will get locked out of your important accounts.

ChuckMcM 11y ago

Nice article, would be interesting to build something that HexView did, in fact, find "nearly indestructible". Full disclosure I'm a fan of the Yubikey, I think that something like it will be the future of operational security for networks. Requiring the key be present to answer challenges helps a lot.

kweks 11y ago

It seems that hardware breakdowns inevitably place a 'raw materials' costing to ojects broken down, often (but less in this instance) - as a somewhat passive-agressive dig at the company: "They sell it for $50, but it's only got $10 worth of components in it!" Outside of the obvious external costs (development, transport, overheads, import, profit, etc), PCB + Tooling costs are often wildly underestimated. For reference, a PCB of this size requires a setup + stencil template, which would run ~ 400 - 500 USD. Tooling for the plastic injection mold for this piece would run around 5000 USD, and each subsequent piece would probably cost around 10 - 50c USD. Tooling + PCBA done right have significant upfront costs that often seem to be forgotten.

nickpsecurity 11y ago
To support your point, most of the delays in the JackPair Kickstarter involve tooling for the casing. The recent one admits they should've talked to an expert before they even settled on the prototype because they had no idea how much trouble it would cause at manufacturing time. Hence, the popularity of the Design for Manufacturing concept these days...
- kweks 11y ago
  Tooling and injection molding is an arcane art. Most people would be amazed to realise that the tooling to make even the yubikey would probably be around 45cm x 45cm of (almost) solid steel block. They'd be probably even more surprised to find that it'd cost 10k - 15k to make the tooling. Diagnosing / 'debugging' issues with injection molding is incredibly difficult - again - it's almost black magic, and it's sadly a skill that's getting harder and harder to find. If you cast your eyes around your desk / room, we see molded plastic parts every where - so we make the assumption that they must be cheap and easy to do. And indeed - the assumption of facility due to availability is a very common trap that many kickstart projects fall into. It's harder to scaffold and pivot in real life ;)
  - nickpsecurity 11y ago
    I believe it. Sounds like a market rife for disruption by people that can turn it into a cookbook approach on the cheap. More interesting from a security angle: malicious tooling on packaging side might be used to pre-compromise chips or devices. I haven't seen anyone write on that and I've had to little time to do a paper on it. I'm sure there's a whole cat and mouse game waiting on us that the cats are probably already playing. ;)

j_s 11y ago

Read a much more detailed security review of the Yubikey as it works in practice here: http://www.unrest.ca/yubico-reinvents-the-yubikey http://www.unrest.ca/yubico-reinvents-the-yubikey

beagle3 11y ago

While we're at it .. are there any other tokens/smartcards that could be used for signing messages (ECC preferable, RSA acceptable)? I only know of YubiKey and the KernelConcepts PGPcard.

watersb 11y ago
I have the Github-branded YubiKey, as well as another U2F FIDO key that I purchased last year from Plug-Up. But now PlugUp web site, http://pu1.fr http://pu1.fr, redirects to a trendy, rebranded site that I can't get to work. So I don't know if that vendor exists anymore. I am excited about YubiCo products. The key I have Just Works, looks and feels very well-made.
X-Cubed 11y ago
Nitrokey is another one: https://www.nitrokey.com/ https://www.nitrokey.com/
- beagle3 11y ago
  Thanks. Nitrokey looks nice. I'll have to look deeper into the github repo to see what it actually supports in hardware though - the website does not mention the smartcard standards that are actually supported.
  - jans23 11y ago
    Nitrokey Pro uses the OpenPGP Card, Nitrokey HSM uses the SmartCard-HSM.